So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

Women 'of fertile age' are assumed by some recruiters to be going to get pregnant so don't get jobs/promotions over men

I HATE this. It makes me angry that I might lose out because people assume I’ll soon get knocked up. I am vehemently childfree for life. It was a terrible idea making it illegal for employers to ask women their plans. I always liked that question so I could explain I wouldn’t skip out in five minutes on maternity leave leaving everyone else in the lurch.

Women tend to marry slightly older men. An average three year age gap can make a bit of a difference in pay.
Female dominated careers pay less. Women go for the four Cs caring.healthcare/ childcare/education /clerical/something I can’t remeber.
Men ask for pay rises more and get them.
Once you go part time the pay rises and promotions don’t come as readily.

@BumbleBiscuit

I think having children is the biggest mistake a woman can make these days. It obliterates the playing field. It’s the thing that usually compromises their time and their careers.

The willingness of so many women to become SAHM therefore becoming entirely dependant on their partner is absolutely mind boggling! It very often ends in tears.

Live for yourself and don’t become dependant on anybody. Just like men do.

Wtf. What am I reading? On a forum called MUMs net, posters are saying having children is the biggest mistake a women can make? Is that what you said to your mother? Jesus. Not every woman wants to be a big shot. Maybe some women are happy with a less stressful job. A top career does not equal success.

The pay gap starts with childbearing and child-rearing. The pay gap between childless women and men close to negligible. And women often do better than men at university in STEM subjects which often correlate with the highest-paying jobs.

The honest answer to "where does it go wrong for women" comes down to good old-fashioned sexism kicking in after children come along.

I cringe when I see this phrase wheeled out on here all the time that it "worked for our family" or "made sense for us" for the woman to stay at home. If the man genuinely has vastly superior earning potential it may make sense but in many cases this is doublespeak for "it made sense for him and I went along with it".

In plain English what this actually means is it never crossed his mind to scale back his work or miss out on a promotion in order to help take a more equal share of the domestic work and childcare and I didn't push things because I wanted not to rock the boat. And now here I am 10 years down the line with vastly lower earning potential and a part-time job with no career progression.

When I tell DD to be careful on the climbing frame but not DS.

I went into admin as I am not that clever. I couldn’t have done a science degree, the vast majority on my uni course, arts, were female. Crikey, if I’d tried to do a physics degree I would have failed. I had 2 maternity leaves during which women I worked with who didn’t want children got promotions, note I said child free women got promotions, not the men. Fair enough as I went back part time and want my kids to be the priority.

@Phineyj

The stats show clearly that the gender gap only emerges when children come along. There have been a lot of threads speculating about the causes.

This isn’t true for all industries.

I work in a make dominated industry and from grad level there is already a pay gap. This was flagged to us whilst at uni and we had a good discussion about why this could be -

-Men could be more likely to peruse jobs in London which come with longer hours and higher starting salaries.

-Men are generally more likely to ask for more money when negotiating salaries and women are more likely to accept the first offer.

-Men are more likely to apply for roles that they aren’t fully qualified. Eg. They will apply if they don’t have all the ‘essential’ criteria.

So far as where does it go wrong I say the above are things we are often conditioned with from childhood due to there being different expectations for boys and girls.

*Pukkatea

@sassbott I love your point 5). Men complain that women are favoured for child custody and don't see that the unfairness or discrepancy is the flipside of the pay gap/women in work issue. If you want to divide it up as you earn the money and she takes care of the kids, don't be mad when a court sees it exactly the same way.*

Yup. One of my younger (male) cousins called me a few years back. His wife is an accountant, he’s a lawyer. He was offered a promotion soon after the birth of his first child and the conversation went something like ‘I can earn more, take this job and the mrs can be a SAHM.’ I put a rocket up him and told him to sort his priorities out. And to ensure that whatever he did in his career, it accommodated his wife having a career too if she chose. I also told him in no uncertain terms to look at the divorce rate and ensure he had active involvement in his child’s care.

He adjusted. Both remain in work. Both are involved with raising their child.

You’re assuming that both parties work in the same industry. As someone in the arts, I was never going to get remotely close to my lawyer husband’s earnings, and I’m okay with that. It’s not a competition.

A top career does not equal success

Neither does becoming financially dependent on your husband. Or being unable to pay rent on a property if the relationship ends.

Women on the whole make a rod for their own backs. There is post after post here where this very situation has ended in tears. Women sacrificing their lives and earning potential to raise children and ultimately leaving themselves completely vulnerable.

This is simple. It goes wrong once you start thinking of having kids and not willing to take massive risks. Looking at my career, I have only grown by making sure I move on to a new job or company post maternity. Now, I won't recommend this as it's very stressful. However, if I did not do this I would have been earning 40% less than what I earn. Now, I most add the move was not always by choice but in hindsight they have been the best.

Also, not having a supportive partner. It does not matter if my job is bringing in less the fact is you need to support as that's the only way a woman has a chance.

Finally and most importantly what the woman values as well. I know a lot of women who prefer staying home. So the idea of work and the way we may value work is weird as well.

'NoChristmasbreak' - women don't give up their intelligence to stay home and raise their families. It takes intelligence to raise children well. It's a hard yet vital job and it's time society valued it as much as 'careers'.

Women don't give up their intelligence to stay home and raise their families. It takes intelligence to raise children well. It's a hard yet vital job and it's time society valued it as much as careers

It doesn’t pay the mortgage or put food on the table if the husband decides to leave though does it?

Just the fact that boys are mostly taller than girls is a big thing. Looking up to someone makes you feel diminutive.

@OppsUpsSide

I earnt more when DC were first born, but I was happy to be main carer, so went part time.

I think biology still exerts an influence on some women. They want to spend more time with young children than men do. As long as their long-term financial security is protected and they are happy, it’s fine.

A lot of women marry someone a bit older who earns more and men marry someone a bit younger who is pretty etc. However 30 years ago I lawyer married a teacher and ended up earning 10x what he did. Before we were married we agreed if full time childcare did not work out for the babies he would give up full time work (but it did not come to that).

I worked until in labour and went back when the babies were 2 weeks, not months, old so had no maternity leave - not surprisingly I ended up warning a lot. I expressed breast milk at work. I never accepted I would do more at home either - in fact my husband owned a house when we married I had just finished being a student so he was better at housework, cleaning the oven and toilets etc and I was more than happy to let that continue!

I'd also be interested to cross analyse the data on male/female dominated professions with unionisation - you would expect professions with strong, strike happy unions to be paid more.

Not quite what your asking, but I read (in a journal article I can't remembers the authors of) that when women go into heavily unionized stereotypically male industries they tend to do better, than when they go into nonunionized stereotypically male industries.

I have found since having DS2 I am more focused on my career - having 2 DC has made me realise how expensive they are, especially now in lockdown when I feel really cramped in a 2 bed flat with 4 of us.

I'm in a different scenario .

I work part time and I earn more than DH who works full time

I feel bad really because I could work full time and we would be better off but I would miss my toddler

A top career does not equal success

I have a top career and consider myself pretty successful.

I think what you meant to say was success is not always defined by having a top career. It depends what you consider success to be.

I valued my role as an involved Mother more than my role as a CEO. I am so glad I could make a choice.

Women don't give up their intelligence to stay home and raise their families. It takes intelligence to raise children well. It's a hard yet vital job and it's time society valued it as much as careers

^

Believe me, we're not undervaluing child rearing on this site. As Bumble says it's just when hubby walks out the door with his 20 year old secretary that the shit hits the fan.

No flowers are thrown for emptying the dishwasher.

DP earned more than me when we got together/ had DD. I had worked for the same small company for for a few years and he just got his first big job. I was underpaid, didn't ask for a raise but eventually got one because all my male colleagues I think had so they had to bump me up in the name of equality. I work in tech and he is a designer, I was 22 and he was 26, 3 years ago. £25k vs £30k.

I went back part time because I wanted the time with DD and it made childcare affordable (me not paying much tax, hitting the limit it TFC and DP doing a days care), we could afford it that way round. I got made redundant and changed jobs almost doubling my salary, still part time so just a bit less than DP now but I'm not so interested in that work anymore and looking to maybe change but I'm aware of the implications for my earning capacity.

Not only just the missing toddler part but I also hate my job. I don't see any room for progression since going part time so just keep plodding on for now

@BumbleBiscuit

A top career does not equal success

Neither does becoming financially dependent on your husband. Or being unable to pay rent on a property if the relationship ends.

Women on the whole make a rod for their own backs. There is post after post here where this very situation has ended in tears. Women sacrificing their lives and earning potential to raise children and ultimately leaving themselves completely vulnerable.

Having children is not making a rod for your own back. It is possible to have children and be ok when a relationship ends. And also ot have a top career. Many parents stay at home because their child can't go into childcare due to disabilities etc. It is not always so black and white. It is not always as simple as stick the child in nursery and crack on with your career.

If you think having a child is 'sacrificing' your life then you shouldn't be having children.
Your life changes.