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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So where does it go wrong for women?

692 replies

Falalalafishfingers · 15/01/2021 18:53

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

OP posts:
IloveJKRowling · 16/01/2021 12:31

I think on the whole, women nowadays have a bit more choice than men in where they decide or end up on the continuum of 'full on, give everything to it career' to SAHM. I'm not sure men have as much choice to be fair

Now that there's the option of shared parental leave I'm not sure this is so true in theory at least.

It's definitely the case that for our first, my DH would have loved to have spent 6 of the 12 months mat leave looking after DD. Our relationship and his relationship with the children would be totally different if he'd done this, and our career trajectories (I think it would be better all around). Unfortunately that wasn't an option at the time.

It's really not that long that this has been an option - it takes time for change to happen. It also takes companies actually walking the walk not just talking the talk - possibly men are more disadvantaged career wise if they take pat leave? Because fewer of them do it? I don't know. I know the uptake isn't that good.

I would also add that - if the relationship lasts then I'd say yes, perhaps the SAHM / part- time working spouse has a better quality of life overall.

However the full-time, higher earner holds the cards financially and if there is a split, women offer suffer hugely as the childcare contribution is not recognised. Lets face it, absent fathers barely even pay for the children when they've left and this country doesn't even enforce that.

WombatChocolate · 16/01/2021 12:31

All the societal factors aside (which are huge) it remains that only women can have babies and breastfeed them. In itself, this means women will always need sometime out of the workplace, if not much, whereas men don’t need to take any time out. In itself, this will always have an impact.

The impacts become larger. Once a woman chooses to breastfeed me has had some time out of work, it often seems to ‘make sense’ for the remaining parental leave to be taken by that parent. Women then Return to the workplace after an absence of 6-12 months, often using accrued holiday for days out per week for child sick leave etc. The woman does not return in exactly the same way to the workplace, but as a mother who has an additional responsibility which takes time from work (sick leave etc) in a way it’s doesn’t for most men.

Women are more likely to return part time. This is a societal expectation that women do the childcare and a function of the fact women do the early stages whilst breastfeeding and the sense that the woman can do it and is good at it, whilst the man is less confident at it develops. So then the woman either returns part time or if working full time still take son more of the childcare planning and compromises, even when there is paid childcare. And if returning to work, there is likely to be a 2 nd pregnancy within 2-5 years, so further time when the woman is clearly pregnant and about to leave, or absent on maternity leave, or just returned from maternity leave. It is all noticed and viewed as reducing productivity and attachment to the workforce.

In basic economic theory, your marginal revenue product (the revenue you bring to your firm) determines demand for your labour and has a key role in your wage. Time out of the workforce for childbearing and rearing reduces experience in the workplace, so productivity. This is before any discrimination or lower perception of women who are mothers as workers, further reduces the perceived marginal revenue product.

Women taking time out of work to look after sick child or attend a child’s school sevent is seen as a bit of a pain and tolerated, whilst a man is seen as a jolly good bloke for doing it. Men are careful to do it very rarely in most cases which adds to its novelty value, and the majority of the ‘burden’ falls on women which builds the sense that employers have of women who are mothers being flaky or unreliable or uncommitted.

When the reality is that lots of women want to stay at home at least part time, the reality is that men being full time is more the norm. In itself, this means men get more experience and promotions. Make attachment to the workplace is stronger.....they have fewer gaps or time out in their careers and this is strongly associated with career progression.

sassbott · 16/01/2021 12:32

This thread is so interesting (especially the link to the other AIBU one). It’s eye opening.

I think there ingrained societal issues around bias.
I think there is a real problem with just how expensive good childcare is.
I think a lot of corporations are getting so much better than they were re flexible working policies.
There are people who just want what they want.

Some women want to continue to work and will spin a million plates to make it all work.
Some just don’t, don’t expect to, don’t want to. And based on that thread, actively pity the women like me who probably do turn up infrequently at their child’s school, looking frazzled, having made the train they needed to catch from the city with a minute to spare.

It’s societal for some. But there’s also a lot of individual choice involved - between both parents. Sometimes the woman will make the unilateral decision to not to return to work (happened to a lot of my male friends in the past 5-10 years).

Do I think women have real challenges to overcome to be equal on a salary footing? Yes.
Do I also think there is a demographic of women who simply cannot wait to give up work once they’ve had kids? Yes.
Do I think that latter group of women own that?
Not in my experience, no. As has been mentioned, when the marriage breaks down and they’re in financial mediation, they’re the ones crying that they gave up their careers in order to enable the husband earn what he did and require life time spousal support.

To someone like me? I just find that so cheap. I couldn’t even begin to comprehend a day when I thought it acceptable to say ‘x person needs to pay me £’000’s to sit on my arse all day.’ I mean it’s just so degrading. (And I know of many cases where this has happened and the STBXH is sitting there saying we never agreed that she would be the SAHM, she unilaterally decided and I was forced into this position).

I also would find it genuinely stressful to be so reliant on another person financially. What if they die? Fall ill? Start to treat me poorly because they know that essentially I’m trapped financially? My mother was far from perfect but she hammered one mantra into me. Get a good education and always stand on your own two feet.

IloveJKRowling · 16/01/2021 12:33

One thing I find really perplexing in terms of trying to get back into work after a SAHM gap is this:

  • If I'd done the exact same work as a nanny that would be recognised and CV worthy
  • because I've done it for my own kid (or without pay for other kids) it doesn't seem to count

I suppose it just says that all society at large (not individuals) seems to value is cold hard cash.

Xenia · 16/01/2021 12:34

I agree - I have seen similar threads over the years on here and this is one of the most interesting and people have not descended into insults. We are all on the same side. I remember even in the early 1990s being asked on to Woman's Hour and being in some magazine articles about being a working mother and earning more than your husband etc etc. The biggest change now is most women take vastly more maternity leave. I have sometimes called that the poisoned chalice - it can tempt you - who wouldn't want a lot of time at home on full pay/. I had nothing, not even 6 weeks at 90% pay as in those days you needed 2 years of service even for that so I was back full time with only 2 weeks off.

I am a mother of 3 sons and I agree that men do no usually have quite the same choices eg to make their career be second place although sometimes they do.

We just have to keep on keeping on in the way that works for each family. I don't regret working full time although as a higher earner woman my husband in about 2003 got more than half our assets, my life savings etc and chose not to pay towards nor even really to see the children so instead of a genders reversed divorce I got 365 days a year contact / residence of children , 100% of obligation to support them and over £1m of debt to keep the house. That of course is something some men who lose the children on a divorce would adore to have as for them being denied contact with children is the worst thing about a divorce - my children's father was unusual in not really wanting any contact - his loss. He thought that was how to hurt me most - given he did not have to pay anything and had got so much on the divorce financially - I had also bought out his claims for maintenance for life which is why h egot more than 50% and no obligation to pay for the children. He works full time but earns less. So the only way to make things harder for me was for him never to "help with" the children or see them overnight (other than perhaps 2 of them to see his parents for 1 or 2 nights once a year ) or even basic things like drive older ones to university.

CounsellorTroi · 16/01/2021 12:37

There are plenty of women for whom staying at home after children is an active and positive choice. Don’t know why so many MNers are in denial about that.

Kolo · 16/01/2021 12:37

The risk you take in becoming a housewife is offset by the possibility of a life of leisure

This is the sort of mentality that comes directly from the complete devaluation of housework and childcare. Equating being a housewife with a life of leisure. Anyone who has spent all day running after children or caring for babies whilst trying to do even the basic housework, day in day out, knows it's not a life of leisure.

Plussizejumpsuit · 16/01/2021 12:37

@GCITC

I'm sure I've read that studies show men are more likely to go for promotions where they don't meet all the criteria, whilst women wait until they are overqualified for the position.
Yep I think that goes for putting yourself forward for jobs or promotions.

But as op says there's something happening before children. As women often say it made sense for them to give up work or go part time . So there is clearly something else going on where there's a gap before children.

One thing is there is a gender decide in the type of work women do and that being low paid. So caring base work in its many forms is low paid.

Kolo · 16/01/2021 12:40

@GodOfPhwoar

I remember an unhappy male colleague saying "at least women have a choice..I have nothing but work.." We discussed that but its quite a prevalent feeling among some men.

Indeed. Somebody made a good point in the other housewife thread when they noted that most men work for over 40 years without ever having more than a fortnight at a time away from the office.

And does a housewife get more that a fortnight away from her 'office'? Even on holiday, is she allowed to drop all of her work duties?
GodOfPhwoar · 16/01/2021 12:40

I wonder what the uptake would be on moving to a test tube baby approach where the sperm/egg of the couple are taken and combined in a lab?

Would this be much more expensive than dealing with birth complications across a whole population - I guess it could be as the baby needs to be kept in an incubator etc as opposed to the natural incubation process. What if couples had the choice of paying for this? The career benefits of continuing to work and also avoiding the maternity leave stigma might well outweigh the cost.

IloveJKRowling · 16/01/2021 12:41

Xenia I agree I think maternity leave in some ways is a 'poisoned chalice'. Particularly until it becomes the norm for men to leave work to care for very small children too (if this ever happens).

One mistake I made was thinking I could pick up my career from where I'd left it a year before. Nothing could have been further from the case. Of course that's not true of all women but I personally know of many who suffered in redundancy rounds after a year's mat leave.

What's the situation in the US? I know women don't have anything like the mat leave there that we have here? Do more women go on to have better careers post-children and is there are lower pay gap? Do fewer get made redundant after maternity leave?

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 16/01/2021 12:42

I am not sure that we are always comparing like with like, here. For some men, they lose out emotionally on a lot and their partners do expect them to provide financially for everything whilst also sharing the domestic stuff.

I think we evaluate these things by looking at women’s rights at work and the progress made in the past (rightly so, imv) but in each relationship the balance lies differently and often it’s the woman who determines that.

I know of some women who live very good lives and I can’t honestly say that their contribution was an equal one (taking everything into account).

I also think we still don’t socially recognise the impact physically on women’s bodies that (pregnancy/childbirth/menopause) play and this presents itself as men ‘taking care of things’ so we don’t have to 🤣🤣🤣

sassbott · 16/01/2021 12:43

But as op says there's something happening before children

I mentor a lot of younger females. And over the years I get the same comment. I’m trying for a baby, I’m not going to go for xyz promotion. I have seen a pattern, time and again, that younger women take their foot off the gas once they know they are TTC. Even though they don’t yet know how long it can take/ whether they can even fall pregnant.

I encourage women to continue to go for a promotion (throw their hat in the ring so management knows they’re interested). And that they have nothing to feel ‘guilty’ about if they get the promotion and then go on maternity x months later. If they are promoted it’s based on their skills and performance to date. The fact that they may go off on maternity is irrelevant to me.

IloveJKRowling · 16/01/2021 12:44

I think the term 'housewife' can be confusing.

There's a big difference with not working with no kids, and 'not working' when you have little kids (if you're even a half decent parent there is no way to 'not work' and adequately care for little children, the laundry alone is endless).

If someone says 'I'm a nanny' or 'I work in a nursery' I've seen many people say 'that must be such a tiring job'. Apparently it's not if it's your own children though? Societal cognitive dissonance, can't possibly admit that women do lots of unpaid work. Might lead to uncomfortable conversations.

GodOfPhwoar · 16/01/2021 12:45

And does a housewife get more that a fortnight away from her 'office'? Even on holiday, is she allowed to drop all of her work duties?

Well, many believe that a change is as good as a break.

Ultimately it would depend on the individual circumstances. A child with SEN could be extremely testing but my sister said she found it much easier than being at work - I used to be envious of her taking the kids to feed the ducks on a nice day whilst I was stuck in the office.

And then there’s the housewives who never return to work like the ones from the thread I posted earlier whose children were grown up, meaning they could pursue their hobbies and see friends all day.

CounsellorTroi · 16/01/2021 12:45

I remember an unhappy male colleague saying "at least women have a choice..I have nothing but work.." We discussed that but its quite a prevalent feeling among some men.

This is true of childless/childfree women too.

Thelnebriati · 16/01/2021 12:46

@GodOfPhwoar

I wonder what the uptake would be on moving to a test tube baby approach where the sperm/egg of the couple are taken and combined in a lab?

Would this be much more expensive than dealing with birth complications across a whole population - I guess it could be as the baby needs to be kept in an incubator etc as opposed to the natural incubation process. What if couples had the choice of paying for this? The career benefits of continuing to work and also avoiding the maternity leave stigma might well outweigh the cost.

Gestation is not an incubating process; the mothers body generates the energy and nutrition that the developing fetus needs from her own cells. Its an interactive process that cannot be reproduced artificially.
HijabiVenus · 16/01/2021 12:46

So what happens in same sex couples?

If the child is sick and needs to be seen by a dr, who takes the time off? Is it the man, because we are equal, or " he wont know one end from the other of MY child".

1dayatatime · 16/01/2021 12:46

@IloveJKRowling

Xenia I agree I think maternity leave in some ways is a 'poisoned chalice'. Particularly until it becomes the norm for men to leave work to care for very small children too (if this ever happens).

One mistake I made was thinking I could pick up my career from where I'd left it a year before. Nothing could have been further from the case. Of course that's not true of all women but I personally know of many who suffered in redundancy rounds after a year's mat leave.

What's the situation in the US? I know women don't have anything like the mat leave there that we have here? Do more women go on to have better careers post-children and is there are lower pay gap? Do fewer get made redundant after maternity leave?

I could completely agree with your view that maternity leave can be a poisoned chalice.

When I was interviewing for a maternity leave cover person to cover my job a friend of mine advised me to puck the worst candidate. Because that way I would be welcomed back into my old job when I returned.

Foolishly I ignored the advice and got shafted.

BlingLoving · 16/01/2021 12:48

What this thread shows, for me, is how many different ways and reasons there are for these deep inequalities. Almost every single point I've seen on this thread is totally valid - and yet the sheer range of opinions is vast. Which just demonstrates the huge cultural, societal, economic etc issues that are deeply embedded here from the way women are funnelled into less well paying roles, to gender pay gaps, lack of promotion, unconscious and conscious bias, women tending to be tasked with more caring responsibilities (whether that's nature or nurture), expectations of men, lack of appropriate childcare options, lack of appropriate parental leave options etc etc etc. The list is endless.

It's a bit depressing really. But I guess we all just keeping plugging away at whatever it is.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 16/01/2021 12:49

@Plussizejumpsuit

But as op says there's something happening before children. As women often say it made sense for them to give up work or go part time . So there is clearly something else going on where there's a gap before children.

I don’t think young women are seen as serious players in the world of work. They are not always identified for long term roles and invested in as young men are. And misdemeanours are tolerated when from young men as learning curve stuff whereas young women can be on the knife edge in trying that they are serious about their job/not there to find a partner.

I have always worked so hard, I was burnt out in my twenties. Couple that with a serious illness and it is very hard to garner that focus and drive when your body is saying slowdown (although this affects men too).

I don’t have the answersHmm

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 16/01/2021 12:53

@1dayatatime

When I was interviewing for a maternity leave cover person to cover my job a friend of mine advised me to puck the worst candidate. Because that way I would be welcomed back into my old job when I returned.

This scares me. I know someone who said they would never employ someone more intelligent than them.

Are we suppose to keep dumbing ourselves down?

RickiTarr · 16/01/2021 13:04
  • OK, so there are three possibilities:

1. They pay for childcare. Family income will be 22+12-14=20.
2. She gives up work. Family income will be 22
3. He gives up work. Family income will be 12

Can you see why option 2 might seem better?

Thanks @RandomLondoner I was in the middle of answering that when the site went down last night, but that is exactly it.

1dayatatime · 16/01/2021 13:05

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque

I personally don't see it as dumbing ourselves down. More a recognition that until companies stop shafting mothers on their return to work it is perfectly logical to put your own interests ahead of the company's and the role by choosing (if you can) the worst candidate to provide your maternity cover.

BillMasen · 16/01/2021 13:09

I keep coming back to the shared parental leave issue

If we can move thinking to become that this is the norm then that would help a lot. But I see resistance to that both on here and in real life

When I was married and the kids came along I wanted to discuss sharing the leave. I had massive resistance from my wife, and financially it would have been much harder as she got full pay, I’d have had none

So. Make parental leave fully shared, as a matter of course, and the same financially.

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