To employ my SIL as a nanny/house help?

[Pumpertrumper]

So I’m not coping. I have a 10 month old, am pregnant and DH is a critical worker gone all the hours under the sun.

My lovely SIL is a student and registered child minder assistant, due to covid she’s struggling to find any job. I see a fantastic opportunity for us to employ her on a PT basis until she can secure a grad job.

She would happily help out for free (has said this repeatedly). We are good friends too but I would only feel right doing it officially. It’s also right she gets paid as is struggling without a PT job.

My question is given we want to employ her flexibly (so she can still uni as needed) and I’m already not coping (so the thought of working out tax/payslips/payroll/holiday allowance/sick leave is SOOO daunting) Is there a way we can just pay her a set amount, she can put it in her savings and it not cause either of us masses of paperwork or liabilities?

I can’t imagine everyone with a baby sitter/pt nanny/mothers help goes through all the official government hiring process (it looks like it’s aimed at proper companies).

Please be kind. I have money I want to pay her, she’s a struggling student wanting to earn. We are just trying to help each other out in a difficult time.

@shouldistop

*I work in VAT fraud.

Does that qualify me?*

Then you'll know there are many bigger fish to fry than someone paying a family member cash in hand for a bit of baby sitting / help in the house

The majority of the revenue lost to tax evasion is comprised of people doing this.

Tax evasion - what the op is proposing to do and pp are encouraging - is a crime.

It won't be the police knocking on the door, it will be HMRC officers because they have powers of arrest etc in respect of tax evasion. I don't think that would make the criminal investigation any less stressful though.

Employment status is not determined by job title, but by the reality of the arrangement. Call her what you like and call the payment what you like, but if the reality is that you are paying her in exchange for providing childcare then she is your employee.

And you'll be breaking NMW law too.

So everyone here crying “fraud”, I guess you never did any baby sitting as a teenager? Never cut neighbours grass or did dog walking, or watered plants while owners were on holiday?

Mummy and Daddy paid for everything? Lovely.

@Doffodils

I'm usually very straight minded when it comes to tax, I don't employ any tradesman who wants cash or accept any discounts for cash, but I would just pay cash here.

My concern would be more about what happens if the relationship sours, but as it's only a short term thing, hopefully that's not too much of a risk.

Seems a bit of a double standard😂 ?

@Pumpertrumper I looked after twins when a student, it worked well. It was only one day a week, and the family paid cash.
Like you, it was only for a few months.
A know person whom you trust and who knows the baby is a plus for starters.

@Llmmnn

You’ve definitively got me confused with someone we haven’t been able to see MIL in ages now. Would actually be super helpful if we could.

I’m a regular poster and most will recognise me btw I’ve not NC or anything (surely if I was hiding from some huge back story I would have).

As I explained I’ve only taken action now as DH has a really bad run coming up at work. Not a long standing childcare issue.

Also not asking how to be illegal legally. Just looking at the best way to have a short term agreement like this. SIL wants a high level of flexibility because of her uni. I’m happy with this but it does mean it won’t be formal set hours each week. It’ll be advocating here and there. Ideally 14 hours a week but there will be some weeks she doesn’t work at all due to uni.

I could just break covid rules or if I was a drama queen I could claim I was so dreadfully unwell I needed a childcare bubble on top of my child under one bubble. But I’m not. I’m actually trying to do a decent thing with the least fuss possible.

It sucks when someone can’t ask for advice without being jumped on or called names. You should review talk guidelines.

@Llmmnn

I have to pay tax.

I pay an accountant to do it for me because I find it hard to work out.

The op wants to dodge tax and national insurance coz woe is her it’s hard to work out.

She needs liability insurance if she’s paying her SIL. For a start.

The SIL needs to declare to her car insurance that she’s using her car for work if she’s taking the baby out in it, or just change it to commuting if not.

Which is precisely why I'd say just keep in informal. Your SIL has offered to come bad help you and keep an eye on her nibling. Give her a cash gift at the end of it to say thank you. There's no need for her to be closing in and out our have performance appraisals. She's close family. If she offers to watch him whilst you nap and she puts death metal on and said on the sofa smoking, tell her not to. Merry her come round and agree she'll help out as needed, like family do, in the agreement that you'll gift her X at Easter

The fact you're saying it will be different hours each week and some weeks might be no hours at all points toward it not being a formal employment arrangement.

From what you've described it is more like babysitting than nannying and of course no-one sets up a payroll for a babysitter, that would be way over the top.

p.s. I work in tax (not for HMRC, as an independent advisor) and I think some of the answers you have been given are quite over-the-top but in principle they are correct.

As with all things HMRC weigh up the costs vs the benefits and whilst they do spend a lot of time investigating small businesses and individuals, they usually do so where someone has been avoiding/evading tax for many years, not a 3 month temporary childcaring arrangement.

@hemhem

Thank you for your helpful advice!
Spoke to SIL and she’s very happy with the idea of £330 per month for 3 months and happy to have it as a ‘here is a lump sum based on around 10 hours per week. Some weeks you’ll come more some weeks less, lots of flexibility’

She wasn’t expecting to be able to earn anything for the rest of lockdown or be able to see me/DS so I really do think it’s worked out a win win for everyone.

@Llmmnn

Well, I wouldn’t break the law. I wouldn’t commit tax evasion and fraud. I wouldn’t drive a car without adequate insurance or have someone working as an employee in my house without insurance in place.

But the op is happy to and wants advice on that.

I hope she gets caught. (She more than likely won’t I know.)

My god you are ridiculous

@MatildaTheCat

Short term few hours a week? Cash.

^^This

What about insurance for jf your sister gets hurt whilst looking after them. I know, I know hugely unlikely but it would weigh on me if she did.
What about her NI?

@SleepingStandingUp
I read it as " Critical Wanker gone all hours under the sun working"

"Another mumsnet Classic"
😂😂😂😂

I can’t imagine everyone with a baby sitter/pt nanny/mothers help goes through all the official government hiring process (it looks like it’s aimed at proper companies)

Yes we do (or in my case did). As pp have said, there are payroll companies to handle most of this.

Minimum wage cash in hand for registered childcare of a baby smacks of taking advantage of a young family member. Minimum wage when you don't intend to pay her NI and other contributions or liability insurance seems downright odd from since you say you have the money.

Pay her properly or go to an agency.

@PicaK

What about insurance for jf your sister gets hurt whilst looking after them. I know, I know hugely unlikely but it would weigh on me if she did. What about her NI?

What if she wasn't paying her and her SIL got hurt helping?

Shape payroll is free for 1-3 employees. Directly links to HMRC. Quite easy in my experience

God, spot the goody-goodies on this thread.

Mothers and children have been absolutely SHAT ON during this pandemic. I am basically a very law abiding person and as a self employed person have filed my taxes very honestly, year after year. But yes, when I was left with no bloody childcare options on two occasions, I paid cash in hand. I suggest we all spend our time and energy worrying about billionaire tax dodgers.

Just pay her cash in hand as it’s an informal arrangement with relatives.

Mothers and children have been absolutely SHAT ON during this pandemic

As have young women. So we exploit young women? We opt out of employer responsibilities to them?

OP isn't short of money, she just can't be arsed to sort out her employer responsibilities, despite the ease wiith which it can be done.

I suspect many of the "goody goodies" have read rather too many of the OP's other threads.

Mothers and children have been absolutely SHAT ON during this pandemic.

What group of people HAVEN'T been absolutely shat on?

No one is saying that other people haven’t been “shat on “ but new mothers or people that have had babies during this haven’t had the support others have had. FACT.

@NoPointInWednesdays

No one is saying that other people haven’t been “shat on “ but new mothers or people that have had babies during this haven’t had the support others have had. FACT.

People who live alone and have no one to bubble with have been shat on. FACT.

people on the front line of this as healthcare workers have been shat on. FACT.

People in care homes and their families have been shat on. FACT.

KIds at school doing exams have been shat on. FACT.

The op has made a series of crap decisions and wants other people to fix her self inflicted shit show. She’s run through some family members already who she took the piss of and didn’t pay, so now she thinks binging the SIL a few quid on the side is going to sort this.

She has run through the mothers generosity already.

This is SHIT is going to happen and family relationships will end up fractured all over it. It’s not a good idea.

I’m not a troll hunter by the way, as the op claims, I think the op is real, absolutely 100% real - I’ve experienced someone like her and it is a big relief in my head that they are no longer in my life

You’re not only a massive troll hunter you’re also making incorrect assumptions about my situation based on nothing and stating it as fact. I’m reporting you.

A. My marriage is fine. DH is just very busy and under stress.
B. I don’t NC frequently to complain about my marriage. I occasionally NC to ask questions about outing situations which the majority of MN do!
C. Even if I did and I was whoever you clearly think I am, you’re the definition of troll, playing detective and trying to ‘out’ people who have posted previously is massively against talk guidelines.
D. I’ve been around ages and have no reputation for being a nasty/ goady or unreasonable poster!
C. She’s not my husbands sister FFS, don’t know where you got that from. Just another of your wild assumptions. She’s my siblings fiancé!

Not arguing with you anyone. Just reporting you!

*E.