To think closing nurseries would be disastrous?

[Purgatory2021]

I'm seeing it discussed left right and centre, my post was prompted by television this morning.

For many reasons (none selfish) I think it would be disastrous, but the one that stands out to me the most is people's ability to work.

I'm sure there will be plenty of nurses/HCP's/important key workers who rely on nursery to be able to do their jobs.

Not everybody has family that can step in.

Older primary aged children and secondary age children can fend for themselves to a degree if push came to shove, but you can't do the same with toddlers and babies.

I assume most of the people calling for nurseries to close don't have children or children of nursery age. It's not just difficult it is impossible.

• Many parents will pay for nursery even if it closes to them.
• Many parents will need to take unpaid leave to look after their children (and still pay for nursery).
• Many nurseries will have to close (they cannot sustain themselves by KW children only) leading to KW needing to reduce hours/give up work.
• Many parents will be trying to WFH and look after their young child putting their young child at risk.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Is there any evidence of spread in nurseries/pre schools though? Surely that is the point. There was not one case last term in my child’s pre school. This is what never seems to be considered.

I was thinking this too, there hasn't been a single case in DD's nursery at any point, or anyone having to isolate, and we're close to a relatively hot spot.

We are key workers and our nursery was open last time. My colleague's nursery didn't so she had to find a new nursery. There is nothing forcing nurseries to open to minimal numbers and the overheads would mean that many would shut. At least by keeping them open key workers can work. Shut them and we will have much bigger problems

I'm dreading if they say nurseries need to close. We've already discussed and DP said he would ask to be furloughed on the days I work but it's not ideal, his work wouldn't be keen on furloughing him. No way could we both work with a 1 year old in tow, she's had enough to look after when we're not working!

[quote Astormofswords]@Woolly17 ohh that’s rough! Sending positive vibes your way. I have a feeling we might all be in the same boat soon!

If you have any good coping mechanisms let me know other than drinking a bottle of wine in the evening 😂🤣[/quote]
Drinking two

Yanbu but Whitty helped with an interview this morning. His view carries weight.

Whitty’s view which is based on numbers of course.

Nurseries are tiny proportion of overall cases.

I can think of plenty of other things which would likely have more effect at preventing transmission and less harmful effects on working mothers:

1. Close playgrounds - people are congregating
2. Close coffee shops and restaurants doing takeaways and only allow places to open for deliveries - again, I see people congregating
3. Have a jolly hard look at the 'essential shops' list and close more
4. Have a jolly hard look at the key workers list and reduce the number of children in schools

@TheKeatingFive

Maybe they need to close as many businesses as possible for 2-4 weeks, like they did in Italy last May.

Which bits of the public sector will be taking the hit on funding due to reduced tax revenues?

NHS? Education? Social care? Take your pick.

The government has already borrowed billions at near zero interest rates that it will take decades to pay back.

Just add the cost (support for closed businesses and lost tax revenues) of this to the bill. They're in for tens, hundreds of billions already, so what's a few billion more?

While we still have lots of people working outside the home and/or trying to keep up with normal levels of productivity and the knock on children in schools and nurseries, and endless support bubbles that people are stretching beyond what was intended, we're going to get nowhere in stopping the spread of the virus, so a 'short sharp shock' approach could well be the cheaper option.

So what if people have to do without new clothes, their preferred brand of shampoo, or some craft items and all manner of other crap that's being ferried out of warehouses into people's homes by armies of warehouse and delivery workers who could stay at home?

Nurseries are closed in Scotland and its already causing difficulties and it's mostly just the first week.
It's difficult though as each nursery set up is individual and in some ways risk is different. A outdoor nursery risk will be a lower than a small nursery that doesn't have outdoor space.

My son is attending his private nursery in Scotland as key worker and tbh I don't have any concerns he spends minimum 75% of the day outside regardless of the weather and temperatures. His nursery has very good procedures in place and from speaking to the staff they don't want to be furloughed. A few have been as numbers have to be 50%.

My DH sees covid numbers due to his job of covid response and where positive cases have been or if there is a work place outbreak etc. I trust him when he says nurseries are not appearing on the list frequently or as a outbreak source currently for our area.

There's a much bigger economic and societal implication to closing early years childcare. Pretty much all of it, bar nurseries attached to schools, are private enterprises.

So schools, being govt funded, can close for months and still open.

Nurseries and childminders, being private, will go under in huge swathes if they are closed for anything more than a few weeks circuit breaker. Parents won't be able to pay fees for no childcare, parents will lose their jobs etc. Then when we need to get the economy rolling again, there will be fuck knows how many people without childcare who can't work.

It's not a straightforward situation for younger childcare at all, and it needs to be considered by looking at what is going to happen to the economy over several years if the sector gets decimated.

I’m surprised that so many nurseries are closing. I’ve heard of nurseries charging 100% of fees during the March lockdown. I was luckier and was asked to pay 50% to retain DD’s place.

I think what’s fair depends on whether nursery staff are receiving furlough pay from the government.

They should close playgrounds if there’s an issue. Not nurseries.

Closing nurseries would be more disastrous than closing KS1 😩

You don’t overload the NHS with Covid, but you create mass redundancy, poverty, mental health, back track on gender equality, drop education...

I’ve got two KS1 kids at home and I’ve achieved 1 work call this morning. Husband is stuck in meetings which he can’t drop. It’ll be roles reversed tomorrow.

I think I’d actually stick pins in my eyes if they were still
Toddlers

Is a 12 month old as capable of sitting down with a snack as a 5 year old?

Let me answer that. DS is 5, off reception currently at home whilst we work full time from home. DD - who is 1 this month currently also at home with chicken pox. It has trebled the anxiety, panic and tension in the house over and beyond home schooling a 5 year old. And no not because of the pox. But because of how impossible it is to leave her be for even a minute. We would be finished off if nursery closed too. Our jobs would collapse. They are stretched to the hilt of flexibility currently

[quote Astormofswords]@Woolly17 ohh that’s rough! Sending positive vibes your way. I have a feeling we might all be in the same boat soon!

If you have any good coping mechanisms let me know other than drinking a bottle of wine in the evening 😂🤣[/quote]
I've started on DH whisky collection. I can highly recommend laphrioug quarter cask- it erases everything.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Unfortunately it needs to happen.

No I don’t think it does.

Nurseries can't charge parents if they can't take their children.

How are nurseries going to afford to stay open? It will depend entirely on the proportion of key worker children they have. Otherwise, they will have to shut, including to key worker children.

If nurseries close we won’t use our KW space but agree it would cause huge problems if they don’t also introduce more support for working parents.
Working with a toddler is much much more difficult than school aged children in my experience.

Which bits of the public sector will be taking the hit on funding due to reduced tax revenues?

BarbaraofSeville already answered where money will come from, so I'll ignore that aspect. I'll just add my usual response to this type of point: the implicit notion that tax on the private sector pays for the public sector is wrong. In general the public sector is as much a part of the overall economy as the private sector, and the difference between public sector output and private sector output is merely that the public sector serves a single customer, which is purchasing on behalf of voters collectively. The economic output caused by being a social worker or a police officer is not fundamentally different or inferior to that caused by being a retail or factory worker. In all cases, I reckon the value of what is produced is probably roughly equivalent to what the people involved earn.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Unfortunately it needs to happen.

Fortunately Whitty doesn’t say this.

It's disasterous for everyone. For high school kids, primary kids, why should nursery kids needs be treated differently? Parents of just nursery kids have a very unrealistic view of older children. Children don't just become self sufficient when they turn 5 just because the idea suits the argument for nursery to stay open while the rest of essential education /schools is closed to the majority.

I think the government are going to have to start being honest about who’s paying for all these closures, furlough etc.

There’s a vocal group of people who want everything shut down for however long it takes. They don’t appear to realise that if this happens, much of the workforce is inactive. If nurseries shut a massive percentage of the working population will become inactive. I have a primary aged child and nursery aged child. Although far from ideal, the primary aged child could be sat in front of Netflix for most of the day with a bag of Haribo and me regularly popping my head in. The nursery aged child would set fire to the house, stab themselves and smother one of the pets whilst I’m on a Teams call. I would have to take unpaid leave. Some of my friends would have to quit work.

The working people are the ones paying for the taxes to cover these closures. We cannot do it indefinitely. Maybe if the government spelled this out and then said in order to balance the burden, all pension payments will be stopped until we get through the pandemic, we would hear less of this ‘we must close everything indefinitely’ talk.

The measures currently in place are enough as long as people comply.

The whole bloody thing is a disaster.

Nurseries can't charge parents if they can't take their children

I'm pretty sure they can and do, to some extent at least. There were lots of threads complaining about it during the first lockdown.