To think closing nurseries would be disastrous?

[Purgatory2021]

I'm seeing it discussed left right and centre, my post was prompted by television this morning.

For many reasons (none selfish) I think it would be disastrous, but the one that stands out to me the most is people's ability to work.

I'm sure there will be plenty of nurses/HCP's/important key workers who rely on nursery to be able to do their jobs.

Not everybody has family that can step in.

Older primary aged children and secondary age children can fend for themselves to a degree if push came to shove, but you can't do the same with toddlers and babies.

This is something I am worrying about. I am an addictions therapist. I have people on my case load who are vulnerable, have very poor mental health, some are high risk of suicide. I have been working from home since March. My 3 year old goes to nursery, she is very clingy to me and if I am in the house she will want to be with me. She can entertain herself for a little while but she is 3 and wants to be near to me pretty much all of the time. Their is no way that I can work, doing meaningful interventions with vulnerable people whilst my 3 year old is in the background singing, shouting and wanting my attention, it is impossible. Some of the things discussed as well are not suitable for her to hear. If I go in to another room she will scream for me. Yes I am classed as a keyworker /critical worker whatever but last time after 2 weeks the nursery shut completely. So what do I do? Ask for furlough, give up my job? We have no family near yo support and the family we have are in their 70s. This will mean my colleagues are left to pick up my caseload and my service users suffer. Its lose lose for me!

I think the point the op is making @HOS8595 is it’s totally different trying to WFM with a baby or a toddler than say a 6yo. Baby’s just beginning to crawl, walk, just starting to eat solids which as you know you need to have eyes on the back of your head and need constant watching. A 6yo or even a 5yo is a bit more independent than a 8mo. Not that her kids deserve a place more.

I know a couple where the DH is an ICU consultant and the DW is a nurse. They have a child at nursery, although they do have local GPs who could potentially look after him, but they are in their 70s. They can't be unusual in being a family of 2 Keyworkers

Yabu.
It's not as clearcut as it seems. Being open to everyone puts huge pressure on the staff.
My daughter works at a private day nursery. Last Tuesday they had a positive case in the baby room. All staff and babies in that room had to go home.
My daughter was meant to be flexi furloughed with 1 day off a week. This turned in to having to work overtime so that's 7.30am until 6pm as not enough staff for ratio. It is harder when staff have to isolate.
However the next day there was another positive case in the baby room and so they closed the entire room.

During the last lockdown it was keyworker children only. There were less than 20 children in the entire nursery.
At the minute there are 30 just in preschool alone. There are parents who are furloughed that still bring their children in.
It's really irresponsible.

They need to be closed except to keyworkers until things get under control.

I honestly dont think many people understand that nurseries are businesses. They dont have to stay open for key worker or vulnerable children if it's not cost effective for them to do so.

To close nurseries will mean that a large amount actual close for good. How the heck is that going to help when it will mean many key workers having to give up their jobs.

Is there any evidence of spread in nurseries/pre schools though?
Surely that is the point.
There was not one case last term in my child’s pre school.
This is what never seems to be considered.

I understand why people say that nurseries should be open to keyworker children only, like schools. But unlike most schools, nurseries are private businesses - so it’s not as simple. During the last lockdown lots of nurseries just shut and didn’t take any keyworker children because they couldn’t make it work financially, so keyworkers were left hunting round for spaces at other random nurseries. The government can’t compel nurseries to stay open for keyworker children. Keeping the sector going would mean funding every nursery as if they were full, which the government is reluctant to do.

I noticed Chris Whitty said this morning at nurseries should stay open and compliance with the current rules is more important than introducing new ones. If the current rules aren’t working because people aren’t complying with them, introducing new ones won’t help and could even make the problem worse.

Closing nurseries qon't slow the spread- there is zero to minimal spread at nurseries.

However, the amount of parents qho then wouldn't be able to work, would have a huge knock on effect to the businesses who lose staff, and families who will lose their jobs.

I'm lucky in a sense i would get full paid leave if nurseries closed, however that completely screws over my team as they would then have to pick up my work.

Childcare is needed, kids under 4 cannot be ledt unsupervised for 7hours a day while parents work

@Smilyaxolotl1 since June last year their has been maybe two cases in my child's nursery, it was staff and the rooms affected had to isolate, they were open again after the isolation period was over. In my child's room their have been no cases. I don't know whether it's because my nursery have been really hot on cleaning, keeping bubbles separate and or not letting staff mix but something is obviously working and it just seems mad to shut it down when rates have been extremely low.

We were also in the position last lockdown that DC2's preschool didn't open to keyworkers because there were only two of us that qualified. As it was, it was okay, but I am at work much more this time around and we would have nowhere to send him. There are in fact more children in DC1's keyworker bubble than DC2's entire preschool!

YANBU it would be disastrous for everyone. GP's/friends would be stepping in and it still wouldn't minimise contact or we would have a huge amount of people off with stress. Being a keyworker doesn't mean much according to a lot of schools too - I know of NHS workers refused a place. So we would be relying on nurseries not doing the same, although I think many would try to stay open rather than the business collapsing.

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs a reality check. Services need to continue alongside fighting COVID or we will not just have people out of work, but massive social and economic issue to contend with when this is over. People still get ill and need medication, which needs to be made, not just dispensed, we need the entire food chain to keep going and need to be involved in production and manufacturing to make the things we need to fulfill our basic needs and for hygiene and transport purposes. And yes, we need accountants, administrators, people who work in logistics, as well as people who work in social, LA and health services that aren't frontline to continue working.

They can't do this while looking after kids. It's ignorant to think these things just fall out of the sky. A lot of jobs are connected to others and are part of a system. If you take nursery care out of the equation, an already tired and overstretched workforce will just fall to pieces. It will probably take far longer than the duration of the pandemic to fix it all again.

Is there any evidence of spread in nurseries/pre schools though? Surely that is the point. There was not one case last term in my child’s pre school. This is what never seems to be considered.

Yes, my son’s nursery is the same. Not one case from June until now (touch wood). As I understand it, the D of E has said that there is no evidence of nurseries being a significant source of transmission. But the response to that is that the data on transmission in nurseries relates to the old variant, not the new variant.

The issue is the mixing of the adults in these settings and that children are the spreaders. There is also the issue of funding it's no where near what it should be and this all has a huge effect. Without support more nurseries and childminders will close but leave them as they are and you will lose the lives of those working in these settings.
We need proper testing for staff and we need to be a priority for the vaccine. We also need parents to be onboard and listen to the advice that if you can keep your child home then do so. Just look at the schools and the volumes of children still attending because lots of parents are selfish and just do not want to have their children at home or do the remote learning this is wrong and isn't helping the current situation.
I'm a childminder I've chosen to take the stance of the first lockdown of key worker and vulnerable children only to reduce the risks thankfully my parents are on board and supportive.
However I'm unsure how long I can sustain working like this as costs have risen with food and cleaning products and a reduction in children if I'm feeling it then so are the nurseries.

It does spread in Nurseries, people seem to forget, there is no social distancing, masks etc. I real feel for the staff. It’s also seems that people forget that a lot of the staff aren’t all young and therefore might be older or vulnerable.

@scaevola the 02 shortage first hit Kent over a month ago. It's not new. Boris just cares now because it's London.

I'm a junior A&E doctor part time. DP is a senior social worker and brings in the vast majority of our cash. We aren't using grandparents for childcare because I see too many 50/60 year olds very sick from covid and I want to keep them safe.

If nursery closes, a&e will be a doctor down. It's a crap decision to make but I will not put my parents at risk, or reduce DPs job when he is our breadwinner. And as others point out, saying nurseries can stay open to key workers doesn't mean it will- many cannot afford too.

@123feraverto

First lockdown resulted in my sons nursery closing down , they opened for key workers but that was not financially viable for them and they closed down in October .

I am a mental health nurse, my ability to work relies on nursery being open.
We do not have any family near by to cover any childcare.

This is what terrifies me. And I think it what the Gov't is looking to avoid by keeping them open, also. SO many will go under, there where will be?

Sorry this has happened to you.

If nurseries shut, I can use annual leave to cover half my working hours for about six weeks (with my husband also doing this). If the lockdown goes on longer, I would have to take unpaid leave. We’re very fortunate that we could afford to do this, though it will have a negative impact on my job.

A family with less annual leave, one of the parents might have to take unpaid leave now. Or they might lose their job. Some parents might feel forced into working around under 5s at home and sadly crawling babies and toddlers could get into dangerous situations, it only takes seconds while their parent is distracted. We don’t all have grandparents who can step in. And can nurseries afford to keep going without non-key worker children?

@Buddytheelf85
Similar to my nursery. They've had one positive case since March 2020 across their eleven nurseries.

I saw on TV this morning, people talking about the gov cancelling support bubbles. If they do that and close nurseries I definitely won't be able to work.

Maybe they need to close as many businesses as possible for 2-4 weeks, like they did in Italy last May.

If fewer people are going to work, schools and childcare can close for almost all children. If people can WFH they can do so, but not at the expense of caring for young children at home, employers should be told to relax productivity expectations.

Keep only the minimum open, urgent healthcare, power, water and communications, dentists, pharmacies, vets or similar on emergencies only. Supermarkets on shorter hours, non essential online retailers to close, it all requires warehouse and delivery staff to function.

Locked down as much as possible, for a short period, to try and break as many transmission chains as possible.

Of course it's disastrous. But Dd and Ds nursery now has a Covid outbreak with the staff so are closing certain year groups for two weeks. So I am taking care of a 1yr old and 3yr old and working from home. It sucks.

Of course nurseries should close. That makes life incredibly difficult for some parents I know, but we have to get the virus under control. It really isn't fair that the staff in nurseries have no choice but to continue working. Keyworker children will always be looked after but the definition of keyworker really needs to be tightened up so that far fewer children are in nurseries and schools.

Our nursery closed even to key workers in the first lock down it wasn’t financially viable to stay open.

Only case the nursery had is a nursery worker testing positive no children in the summer. Granted it’s the old strain so it would be interesting if london had any more info on the newer strain.

There was a thread a few days ago that said if nursery’s closed that there should be an option for one parent to be furloughed. Not 100% sure that’s viable economically but I’m not sure nursery’s closing and trying to work from home with under 3s is viable either. I can put a film or tv on for my older children. A small child / baby doesn’t sit and watch telly and you have to eyes in the back of your head.

It’s such a rubbish situation for so many people. Argh is it 2022 yet??

Maybe they need to close as many businesses as possible for 2-4 weeks, like they did in Italy last May.

Which bits of the public sector will be taking the hit on funding due to reduced tax revenues?

NHS? Education? Social care? Take your pick.

@Woolly17 ohh that’s rough! Sending positive vibes your way. I have a feeling we might all be in the same boat soon!

If you have any good coping mechanisms let me know other than drinking a bottle of wine in the evening 😂🤣