to think Derbyshire police need to read the LAW and understand that you can't fine people when they are not breaking it

[chomalungma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Surrounded by police, treated like a criminal for driving 5 miles to a beauty spot for a walk.

It is not illegal to drive to exercise.

@Tavannach

And meanwhile in London hospitals doctors are having to make decisions about who to treat because they're so overstretched.

This virus is spread by social contact. Follow the guidelines/law/common sense - doesn't matter what you call it. The NHS is at breaking point.

Just because hospitals are suffering, although this is not due to people going for walks in open areas, that doesn't makes it ok for the police to make up their own laws.

@Tavannach the point here is not whether or not they should have driven to go for a walk. It’s whether or not the police officers acted lawfully in issuing them a fine. They are separate points, and unless you fancy living in a police state, it is important that they remain such.

Living in a National Park, we have seen first hand the horrors of visiting covidiots. I'm not denying we have a few homegrown ones too, by the way. We have family in the Peak District - covered by Derbyshire Police - who have also suffered thanks to covidiots. We have heard from them about the littering, fighting, vandalism, crowding, dangerous parking, outdoor toileting, fires and medical emergencies in Chatsworth Park alone, for example. There is a BBC link to a multi-car crash and to various other non-local covidiots getting stuck in their cars in the ice and snow near Buxton, out on jollies to see the snow and sledge, requiring shelter and call outs from ambulance, fire, vehicle recovery, mechanics and so on - not forgetting Derbyshire Police.

The police aren't perfect and get a lot wrong. In normal times I'd be jumping up and down about civil liberties, freedom and injustice. We're not in normal times though, are we? I support the police in clamping down on non-essential travel. I agree it is still open to genuine misunderstanding or being deliberately ignored so would support a clear limit in law of, say, 5 miles for travel for exercise except for those with medical exemptions and to be reviewed regularly. The residents of the Eyam of old had the right - and selfless - idea. Now we think too much of self.

I'm surprised the police officers failed to also fine them for wearing copious amounts of make-up and conspicuously new, branded wellies in a rural environment.

Exactly pinfloy if you are local enough to access on foot or by bike it would ahve been ok. It is by dint of paying to access the carpark that they were breaking the law. Presumably if they had met up after leaving the carpark then they could have argued that they weren't.

That's not what i was saying, the fact that you can be there without a car without paying proves that the requirement to pay to park a car does not prevent it from being a public space. They were not breaking any laws, no matter how much people twist the guidance or add their own personal beliefs.

@OHolyTights I agree that it would be better if the law were more specific. But I disagree that we should give the police a pass because we’re not in normal times. I think it is precisely in difficult times that we must maintain our high expectations.

The legislation says that

"(4) A place satisfies the condition in this sub-paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and—

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b)the place falls within one of the following categories—
F22(i). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(ii)botanical gardens;
(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site."

So unless it is one of the listed and you have paid to be there then it is not a public outdoor space. If you and the person you are meeting have not paid to be tehere then it is a "public outdoor space"

In normal times I'd be jumping up and down about civil liberties, freedom and injustice. We're not in normal times though, are we

Surely those things are important, no matter what is going on?

I just read that too and thought wtaf?
Schools half filled w pupils when they’re supposed to be closed & the police worry about two walkers. It’s a disgrace.
It’s not illegal to drive to exercise , it’s guidance to exercise locally.

I think this is incorrect. I clearly remember being in tier 4 last week and it being allowed to exercise in 'publicly accessible countryside' - which to me includes countryside that does not require payment as well as countryside that does.

@chomalungma

Wasn't it Derbyshire police who were taking drone photos of a couple of people dog walking in the peaks last time?

I think we chatted in here about it at the time.

So they are overstepping the mark again?

Hopefully Lord Sumption will be along again soon to publicly remind the police that their job is to uphold existing laws, not make up their own laws.

Of course they are important, OP. I meant that in normal times I would not for a second support a travel limit for exercise at all, let alone a 5 mile one.

@pinfloy

They can only meet in a "public outdoor place" the reservoir car park was not a "public outdoors pace" because they had to pay to be there which is why sub para 4 kicks in.

They didn't have to pay to be there, they had to pay to park their cars there. I've never encountered a car park that I've had to pay for if entering by foot or bike. Some even provide free bicycle stands, I'm pretty sure a lot of the reservoir ones do.

This is the correct interpretation.

A place doesn't cease to be a public outdoor place because there is a car parking charge.

Prrsumwbky the specific listing of certain public outdoor places is meant to make it clear that they are public, even though additional charges may apply.

This is all a bit unsatisfactory if the law is so clear that the police are misaopkyi g it and the public struggle to understand it. Although unsurprising, since there are now so many limits on our most basic freedoms (walking on the countryside?) that you have to question whether they go over and beyond what is be essary for a lockdown. This isn't happening in most other countries in Northern Europe.

@KarmaNoMore

Faeces not faces, but yes lots of poo at the base of the trees. Lovely!

How do you know it's human?

The gov.uk guidance dated 6 January states:

"Public outdoor places include:

• parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
• public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
• the grounds of a heritage site
• playgrounds" No mention of parking charges. So that's a red herring.

We don't have much of a constitution but what we do have is "What the Queen enacts in parliament is law". No mention of what the police or someone on a parenting forum fancy. The law comes from parliament.

If you receive a fine from the police you have the right to contest this in court. Not being bothered to or being afraid to use a facility available to you does not make the system unfair. I have friends who are magistrates and nothing elicts an eye roll like asking them about these police-issued 'fines' for not breaking the law.

Those of you who think that it is right for the police to decide for themselves what's legal and what isn't, or 'interpret' the law, might like to bear in mind that while the 'laws' that the police are inventing suit them at the moment, the day may come when they are accused by the police of breaking the law when they are doing something perfectly legal that they may very much want to do. The principle holds in all circumstances, whether they suit the individual at a particular time or not.

If you support the discouragement of people from breaking the guidelines, by all means encourage the police to ask them politely to desist, but we should all, including the police, remember that the public are quite within their rights to thank the police for their advice and continue with what they are doing. The police had better have a darn good reason for trying to 'enforce' guidelines.

As for ‘accidents’ / I had a horrible fall about half a mile from home once. They can happen anywhere walking or driving any distance and as far as I’m aware you can leave your house!!

@Unescorted

The legislation says that

"(4) A place satisfies the condition in this sub-paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and—

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b)the place falls within one of the following categories—
F22(i). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(ii)botanical gardens;
(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site."

So unless it is one of the listed and you have paid to be there then it is not a public outdoor space. If you and the person you are meeting have not paid to be tehere then it is a "public outdoor space"

There is a distinction between payment to park a car and payment to enter.

Someone could cycle 15 miles to such a plsce and be outwith the guidance while someone driving 1/2 mile would not otherwise.

Oholytights the night they were pulling people out of the snow on Long Hill there was a local woman who had gone missing having suffered a MH crisis. They had to prioritise pulling them out over the woman missing because one of the families had driven out with a small child on a day when snow had been forecast. Mountain rescue had to be called out before they had finished the search lower down just in case she was on the hills. I can see why D'shire police are a little quick to put people off.

Exercise yes. Just to meet someone for a chat, no.

But you can chat while meeting someone.

Honestly I think some people think you should go about in public these days self flagellating and never opening your mouth less you feel enjoyment at your shameful leaving of the house.

@HappyTimeTunnelDinosaur

See if the problem is local, they need to make it clearer. 7 miles is definitely local in my mind, e.g locally grown veg. However, *@lowestebb* and others think otherwise. It's too subjective.

Because he or she is police and police defend other officers shitty incompetency to the bitter end

@amicissimma

My thoughts too. You have articulated it well.

I go more than five miles from my home on an almost daily basis to exercise, I sometimes buy s picnic on the way home.

At least now I know this makes me a dangerous criminal.

*The gov.uk guidance dated 6 January states:

"Public outdoor places include:

• parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
• public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
• the grounds of a heritage site
• playgrounds"

No mention of parking charges. So that's a red herring*

That is the list I had read before as well.

I agree, Justcallmecaptainobvious, that we should maintain our high expectations. I think the temporary change in the law is required just now for clarity in this - both for the general public and the police about what our high expectations of each other actually are, but also for deterring and dealing with the covidiots.

Public gardens are one of the things listed as being ok to pay for... reservoir car park does not appear on that list.