to think Derbyshire police need to read the LAW and understand that you can't fine people when they are not breaking it

[chomalungma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Surrounded by police, treated like a criminal for driving 5 miles to a beauty spot for a walk.

It is not illegal to drive to exercise.

Our local National Trust park is open - in the middle of the countryside, with only about a dozen or so houses within 5 miles. Their takeaway kiosks are also open so you can buy sandwich, cake and hot drink. If the rule is only 5 miles then it is madness for them to open and sell food and hot drinks because no-one will go. How does their opening square with the police?

I don't intend to nit-pick about law and guidance in the current emergency. I intend to act in the spirit of what is being asked of us all.

Good for you @OHolyTights. I myself only leave the house once a week to collect my click and collect shopping.

However, I bet you would be nit-picking about law and guidance if a police officer, making up his own law, issued you with a fine when you were going about your legal business.

Is the fixed penalty sent in the post or issued instantly?
If its sent by post I'd be interested to know if they actually receive one at all.
I'm wondering if these media scare tactics are just part of the rule by fear strategy they seem to be adopting.

@Unescorted

They can only meet in a "public outdoor place" the reservoir car park was not a "public outdoors pace" because they had to pay to be there which is why sub para 4 kicks in.

It doesn't kick in because it only applies to gatherings of more than 2 people - see subpara 1.

@FoxyTheFox

Brilliant, can sympathise completely, I think mine would have driven me mad too.

@Unescorted

They can only meet in a "public outdoor place" the reservoir car park was not a "public outdoors pace" because they had to pay to be there which is why sub para 4 kicks in.

That law refers to Tier 4 and tiers are currently suspended due to a nationwide lockdown.

However, I bet you would be nit-picking about law and guidance if a police officer, making up his own law, issued you with a fine when you were going about your legal business.

Exactly. All this spirt of the lockdown nonsense is irrelevant. The fact is no laws were broken and they were not doing anything wrong so the police had absolutely no reason to stop and fine them. They simply did so because it's an easy target.

@Justcallmecaptainobvious

Can we say it loudly for those in the back (especially the police officers...) the word local is not in the legislation.

The legislation specifies the activities for which you may leave your house. It does not say anything about travelling to access these activities. Therefore all this discussion over what is “local” may be relevant to mumsnet, but is totally irrelevant to the issuing of fines!

I’ve always been a 100% supporter of the police. But the doubling down on this by Derbyshire police is utterly unacceptable.

Pls could you give the wording? To counterbalance the incorrect posting of the tier 4 rules by others (currently suspended)

Para 2 says you can meet one other another person for exercise in a "public outdoor space" Para 4 says it is not a "public outdoor space" if you have to pay for it unless it is one of the specifically listed places (botanical gardens, castle grounds etc).

Because they paid for access and is not one of the listed places where you can pay to access and it still be a "public outdoor space" they cannot meet to exercise there.

The legislation says we are all in Tier 4 - and they have redefined some elements of the tier 4 regulations.

Here is the correct legislation:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

The legislation passed the other day simply made updates to this one. As you can see from the wording on the website, 'There are currently no known outstanding effects' - meaning that the changes from the legislation this week have now been incorporated.

@Unescorted

Para 2 says you can meet one other another person for exercise in a "public outdoor space" Para 4 says it is not a "public outdoor space" if you have to pay for it unless it is one of the specifically listed places (botanical gardens, castle grounds etc).

Because they paid for access and is not one of the listed places where you can pay to access and it still be a "public outdoor space" they cannot meet to exercise there.

So people visiting stately homes to walk in the grounds can only do so individually in groups of no more than 1?

this is the legislation for England

No they can meet one other person because it is one of the "public outdoor spaces" listed in schd 2. para 4

They can only meet in a "public outdoor place" the reservoir car park was not a "public outdoors pace" because they had to pay to be there which is why sub para 4 kicks in.

They didn't have to pay to be there, they had to pay to park their cars there. I've never encountered a car park that I've had to pay for if entering by foot or bike. Some even provide free bicycle stands, I'm pretty sure a lot of the reservoir ones do.

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not"

Quote from today

If your interpretation is correct then the whole place would have to be closed as a pay to enter leisure facility.

And meanwhile in London hospitals doctors are having to make decisions about who to treat because they're so overstretched.

This virus is spread by social contact. Follow the guidelines/law/common sense - doesn't matter what you call it. The NHS is at breaking point.

Exactly pinfloy if you are local enough to access on foot or by bike it would ahve been ok. It is by dint of paying to access the carpark that they were breaking the law. Presumably if they had met up after leaving the carpark then they could have argued that they weren't.

Just because something is open it does not mean it is lawful for a person to access it eg under 18's in pubs.

@benedicto there is no specific “lockdown” legislation. The relevant legislation basically puts everyone in tier 4 and made some small changes to the specifics of what applies in tier 4. The legislation being quoted on here is correct.

@Tavannach common sense and indeed statistics suggest that hospitals are not overwhelmed due to people going for walks in the open air.

I don't disagree Tavannach. But we don't have to jettison the rule of law in the process.

And I totally disagree about the parking charges. That you have to pay to leave your car somewhere does not stop it being a free to enter public place. You have to pay to leave your car on some/most streets.

@Tavannach

And meanwhile in London hospitals doctors are having to make decisions about who to treat because they're so overstretched.

This virus is spread by social contact. Follow the guidelines/law/common sense - doesn't matter what you call it. The NHS is at breaking point.

irrelevant

what matters is the law

[quote Justcallmecaptainobvious]@benedicto there is no specific “lockdown” legislation. The relevant legislation basically puts everyone in tier 4 and made some small changes to the specifics of what applies in tier 4. The legislation being quoted on here is correct.[/quote]
OK, I will take your word for it, legal things cause me stress. I am very law-abiding. I haven't left the house since Tuesday. My normal walk is 5 miles away and I am in a support bubble and I meet the support bubble there. Now I can't even meet my support bubble. ironically, the police would have no problem if I drove to their house and met them inside, but they are ICU nurses so I am trying to be responsible and meet them outside. Now I can't see anyone.