to think Derbyshire police need to read the LAW and understand that you can't fine people when they are not breaking it

[chomalungma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Surrounded by police, treated like a criminal for driving 5 miles to a beauty spot for a walk.

It is not illegal to drive to exercise.

@Snaketime

Well considering they have said stay local, don't travel and the fact that people who live in Derbyshire are sick of everyone coming out the the cities to "exercise somewhere quiet, good on the police. It might be "quiet" but people still actually live and work here that don't want people coming from high tier areas. They were in a lower tier until all the 'walkers' came out then the infection rates went up. I mean how difficult is it? Even a bloody dog can sit and stay!!

Bollocks.

Cases in the north of the county began rising in the summer in line with living on the threshold of Manchester and Sheffield. Higher rates in Burton and Leicester haven't affected South Derbyshire so much until national rates generally rose, but have affected pressure on Derby Royal throughout.
In September, cases rose abruptly in Nottingham and over a few weeks spread west through the small border towns to Derby. The White Peak zone in the heart of the county has generally stayed low in cases despite towns such as Ashbourne and Matlock being popular with visitors (and their economies dependent on them)

It's not people having the audacity to walk, it's the reality that the life of urban populations straddles arbitary political boundaries. Much of the Derbyshire population has much more contact across boundaries than within their own county that takes at least an hour and a half to travel within its own length! You could get the train from Derby to London to commute in less time than drive through the country from Glossop to Swadlincote.

The charge/fine should not be issued until a court has found that you are guilty (rather than the punishment being issued first and then you having to go to court to establish whether you deserve the charge/fine).

It actually strongly reminds me of tbe bullying tactics used by car parks who fine you. They know most people wont want to fight the fine in court so the risk of a small minority doing so is worth the amount of income they will make from those who just pay the fine even if they were not in the wrong.

I am reminded of this classic Not The Nine O’clock News sketch

m.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

@chomalungma I posted the Adam Wagner link earlier which was from November, and I've just seen on Twitter he is about to upload a new video to cover any legal changes and address the over reaching of the Police I hope.

Derbyshire Crime stats show 9641 reported crimes for November 2020, the last date for which the stats are available. I hope that Derbyshire has solved each and every one of those crimes, plus December's total, given that they apparently have so much spare police capacity currently.

@FoxyTheFox

They're being totally heavy handed.

I took the DC for a drive this morning and the police (Northumbria) were pulling over cars at random in and out of the village. I got pulled over and asked where I was going, I explained the DC were on the verge of killing one another so I was taking them for a drive along the seafront (one mile from my house and many, many miles long), we wouldn't be getting out of the car, it was purely to help calm them and maybe even encourage the 3yo and 11yo to have a nap before I end up doing a murder. Police laughed and waved me on my way.

Do you mind me asking roughly where this was @FoxyTheFox? Not trying to out you at all just I live in Northumbria's area (Gateshead) and am wondering if I'm likely to encounter this! thankyou - and no worries if not.

Can we say it loudly for those in the back (especially the police officers...) the word local is not in the legislation.

The legislation specifies the activities for which you may leave your house. It does not say anything about travelling to access these activities. Therefore all this discussion over what is “local” may be relevant to mumsnet, but is totally irrelevant to the issuing of fines!

I’ve always been a 100% supporter of the police. But the doubling down on this by Derbyshire police is utterly unacceptable.

Was shocked by this. Those poor women. There's groups of drunk crackheads roaming our city centre if they'd like a proper job to do.

Isn't the Foremark res owned by Severn Trent Water, with a pay and display carpark? The article quotes one of teh people saying they parked 2 spaces away from each other, implying they used said P&D.

If this is then they will have paid to access the outdoor amenity. Sch 3A part 2 sub para 4 of the The Health Protection (Coronovirus, restrictions) (no3) and (all tiers)(England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021defines a permitted outdoor space as one that you have not paid to access unless it is a botanical garden, gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

If they did pay for the parking they were breaking the law. Presumably people who walk to the site aren't breaking the law if they meet up with one person to walk around it.

@benedicto

Nevertheless, how do you suggest anyone who is wrongly accused gets the charge dismissed without going to court The charge/fine should not be issued until a court has found that you are guilty (rather than the punishment being issued first and then you having to go to court to establish whether you deserve the charge/fine).

But your objection is having to go to court. If you are innocent, you have to go to court either way.

We all need to exercise within our own village, town or part of city unless covered by a medical exemption or there is no other nearer reasonable option - the current guidelines seem clear to me.

Essential = need to
Non-essential = want to

What part of 'national and international deadly pandemic' do the jolly takers not understand?

Parking charges are not entry fees, surely

@OHolyTights

We all need to exercise within our own village, town or part of city unless covered by a medical exemption or there is no other nearer reasonable option - the current guidelines seem clear to me.

Essential = need to
Non-essential = want to

What part of 'national and international deadly pandemic' do the jolly takers not understand?

Guidelines are not the law. Police can only fine people who have broken the law.

@longestlurkerever

Parking charges are not entry fees, surely

Now we are getting into some interesting legal debate here

I don't intend to nit-pick about law and guidance in the current emergency. I intend to act in the spirit of what is being asked of us all.

My main objection is that there should be any doubt as to whether this is OK. One of the EU members (it is Belgium or the Netherlands, cannot recall) said that to get to daily exercise was by walking or cycling. Simple enough, no doubt, and no situations such as the trips to the Brecon Beacons or in parts of the Peak District.

Detail is not one of the government's abilities it seems.

It states "no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or fall in to [list as previous above]"

If walking with a cup is against the law, 3/4 of the people I saw out walking this lunchtime were breaking it! Costa coffee is doing so much trade they are hiring 3 more staff, there's an independent, an Italian restaurant, 2 pubs and a food stand all doing coffee in addition - it's very busy despite the temperature and completely pedestrianised so everyone must walk with their cups. The pubs are also doing cups of soup and a roll "to warm you up whilst you walk". The police here have enough on their plate trying to round up bored teenagers hanging around to bother the coffee drinkers

The legislation about payments is to restrict gatherings. These women claim to be exercising under schedule 3A Part 1 section 2 - exception to the restriction on leaving home.

I took the DC for a drive this morning and the police (Northumbria) were pulling over cars at random in and out of the village. I got pulled over and asked where I was going, I explained the DC were on the verge of killing one another so I was taking them for a drive along the seafront (one mile from my house and many, many miles long), we wouldn't be getting out of the car, it was purely to help calm them and maybe even encourage the 3yo and 11yo to have a nap before I end up doing a murder. Police laughed and waved me on my way.

The irony there @FoxyTheFox is that your journey was absolutely illegal! Going for such a drive is not permitted under the legislation. If you had got out of the are and walked on the seafront that would be OK as it would be leaving the house for exercise.

Not blaming you for doing what you did, and I think that the police's response was correct. I'm just showing how stupid the whole thing is.

You are allowed to take a vulnerable person for a drive if required in a caring role, which would include a parent taking a disabled child for a calming, familiar drive.

The full text of paragraph 4 of the Regulations is here;

Participation in gatherings outdoors
4.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 4 area which—

(a)takes place outdoors in a place which satisfies the conditions in sub-paragraph (4) and consists of more than two people; or
(b)takes place in any other outdoor place and consists of two or more people.
(2) No person living in the Tier 4 area may participate in a gathering outside that area which—

(a)takes place outdoors in a place which satisfies the conditions in sub-paragraph (4) and consists of more than two people; or
(b)takes place in any other outdoor place and consists of two or more people.
(3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply if any of the exceptions set out in paragraph 6, 7 or 8 applies.

(4) A place satisfies the condition in this sub-paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and—

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b)the place falls within one of the following categories—
F2(i). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(ii)botanical gardens;
(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.]

It doesn't apply in this case because of the requirement in paragraph 4(1)(a) that there are more than 2 people which I've added in bold above.

They can only meet in a "public outdoor place" the reservoir car park was not a "public outdoors pace" because they had to pay to be there which is why sub para 4 kicks in.