Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

Cokie, what are you doing, are you trying to spam the board or something?
How can you say someone is not acting in good faith just because they have a differing opinion then go on to do this?
Seems a bit hypocritical

Completely irrelevant whataboutery.

Just so I'm clear, people are allowed to bring up skin colour, women and trans individuals who have committed crimes or behaved disgracefully, but if I bring up women it's irrelevant whataboutary?

Most men are not paedophiles, that does not mean we ignore the possible "impact on the rest of the population." and allow men in children's change rooms

Is this more irrelevant whataboutary? Or is it just me that gets accused of that.

I'll answer anyway.

Most men aren't paedophiles some are and some will abuse their position to assault children. Does this mean that we keep all men away from children. Should they not be allowed to work in schools and nurseries and as childminders or use public toilets because a minority of men abuse their power?

But you never addressed the fundamental questions, did you? And even when several people pointed out to you that your proposal for neutral language literally made no sense, you didn't counteract that with any reasons, your argument is just "my opinion is valid,

Which fundamental questions didn't i address?

I can only guess that you must be very young if you have not been forced, in real life, to see how everyone (and especially women) sooner or later have to deal with material reality, including harm perpetrated against them.

You have literally no idea about my life, or what my experiences are. Trying to make your point by patronising me isn't achieving anything.

Its not even just one person is it.

No, but the links on these threads are always about the same few people. The tshirts with the definition of woman on them are there to deliberately be goady towards trans people. They weren't a thing before the trans debate started. I would hope these same shops also ban sexist tshirts too.

Most of the activists I've noticed seem to flee whenever the questions get a bit tough or the flaws in their arguments are pointed out. Many seem to be unable to discuss issues in good faith and won't cede a single point. Just argue you into circles to try to wear you out, report your posts and try to silence you, and then flee when pressed for an answer. It seems to be a stubborn way of not conceding, even if by fleeing they are conceding in a roundabout way.

I'm going to assume this isn't about me as I haven't reported your post and have been busy today I haven't 'fled' I simply have a life outside of MN

The point about skin colour in the case of "black birthing bodies" wasn't a deflection. It was a direct element of why that particular so called "neutral" language was problematic. Your reference was in every way a deflection.

And yes, when you're advocating for the sex class who commit 98% of sex crime to be able to access female spaces, you're going to be challenged on the safety.

Does this mean that we keep all men away from children. Should they not be allowed to work in schools and nurseries and as childminders or use public toilets because a minority of men abuse their power?

We keep adults away from children where there is a risk unless they have completed a DBS check. Safeguarding is a thing, really it is. Plus, you are, as usual with people presenting the TRA position, completely ignoring the issues of privacy and dignity. Stop asking for the moon on a stick, and women might not be so wary and defensive. Women have rights, and we are not going to cede them just because a male declares they feel like a woman.

Oh sorry, I said "asking for the moon on a stick". I didn't ever notice these males ask women what they thought, just demanding.

The tshirts with the definition of woman on them are there to deliberately be goady towards trans people.

No they aren't. Not everything revolves around trans people. They are to affirm the actual definition of "woman" as an adult human female person. If people have a problem with that, that's for them to deal with, and they might want to look at getting some psychological support.

Your reference was in every way a deflection.

No i answered about 'birthing bodies' I didn't deflect at all. I just stated I wasn't going to start commenting on skin colour, it isn't my place to speak on behalf of black women.

We don't keep men out of public toilets that boys use because a minority of men abuse boys, do we?

Please stop aligning me with TRAs I am certainly not one.

Stop asking for the moon on a stick

I am asking that a trans inclusive space remains trans inclusive and doent change for the op. Is that really the moon on a stick?

No they aren't. Not everything revolves around trans people. They are to affirm the actual definition of "woman" as an adult human female person.

Why would that be needed if it wasn't geared towards trans issues? It is perfectly clear why the tshirts have just come out.

Most mothers of boys don't allow them into the men's on their own until they're around 8.
That's why you see little boys in the ladies with mum.
They're not confused about their gender. It's for safeguarding.
Hope that clears things up for you.

Why would that be needed if it wasn't geared towards trans issues?

I simply said it was an affirmation of the actual meaning, as it seems people may have forgotten. Not "goady", but necessary.

I am asking that a trans inclusive space remains trans inclusive and doent change for the op. Is that really the moon on a stick?

As I think I have made perfectly clear, I am talking about the wider issues. And yes, asking women to consent to being a sub category of their sex, is. Hope that helps.

If the word woman is goady then why are you arguing that terms such as menstruator or birthing body are equally goady and offensive.

Why is only one set of people allowed to be offended by it?

Most mothers of boys don't allow them into the men's on their own until they're around 8.

Thanks for the irrelevant information.

You know boys over the age of 8 get abused too, right?

Ereshkigalangcleg no problem, those tshirts are nothing at all to do with the trans issue, definitely not

It was in response to your sweeping statement that men are not perceived as a threat to boys.
They are.
And yes, I, like you am perfectly aware boys over 8 are abused. Mostly by men I might add.
I must say, you do come across as very self righteous young.
And yes, kinda goudy.
I imagine like the rest of us once you have experienced the world a bit you might see things a little less rosy.
Of course by then you'll have no words left to describe your feelings or situation.

And yes, asking women to consent to being a sub category of their sex, is

So you believe trans inclusive spaces should suddenly stop being inclusive on the say so of a new member? Yet argue that groups that aren't trans inclusive shouldn't have to change at all? I guess you simply have an issue with transgender people having any sort of space to talk or share their problems.

If the word woman is goady then why are you arguing that terms such as menstruator or birthing body are equally goady and offensive.

I never said any of those terms were offensive. Some people may be offended by any of them though, and there should be space in the world for everyone to discuss problems with people who use language they comfortable with. This group isn't the one for the op, the op needs to find one that she feels comfortable with. Its really that simple.

With regard to saying the shirt is goady, that is literally the point in them. Would you be happy seeing dictionary definitions of various misogynistic words on a tshirt? I have seen many threads on here complaining about wording on cars, tops, websites etc because posters feel its anti woman.

And on that note I have stuff to do, just before I get accused of running away because I don't have a point and it's all too much again.

Are you saying woman is equivalent to a misogynistic word.
So:
Woman: adult female
Cunt: women's genitalia

Would be equally offensive in your view?

It was in response to your sweeping statement that men are not perceived as a threat to boys.
They are.

I didn't say that.

I imagine like the rest of us once you have experienced the world a bit you might see things a little less rosy.

I am in my 40s, am a bereaved parent twice over, have been in 2 refuges, was abused throughout childhood and then marriage until I was in my 30s and am now a single parent of 6 children who works and currently has cancer. Dont let the fact I have life experience and a different opinion to you stop you trying to patronise me though.

Now I really do have to go.

Why though, having seen the examples where its proven to be out right offensive and dangerous, when it disadvantages women by hiding discrimination and sexism, and doesn't benefit women in the slightest, when push comes to shove, protecting people from physical reality still becomes a higher priority than protecting wonen.

Who does that even benefit? Certainly not women. And not those who are biologically women but don't consider themselves as such. They are harmed too.

So again. Who does it benefit to hide all the problems women face as a sex behind neutral language ?

We don't keep men out of public toilets that boys use because a minority of men abuse boys, do we?

I'm amazed someone who used a presumably woman only refuge is happy eroding women's rights. Absolutely amazed.

So you believe trans inclusive spaces should suddenly stop being inclusive on the say so of a new member? Yet argue that groups that aren't trans inclusive shouldn't have to change at all? I guess you simply have an issue with transgender people having any sort of space to talk or share their problems.

This all depends on whether the group was started with the intention to be all inclusive or was started with the aim to help females and females only. If this group has been forceably changed, like so many seem to be, it is in no way appropriate to start the conversation with a new member who is in need of such a support group with this opening chat.

If this group was started with the intention of being always inclusive, it should state its aims.

The point raised that women are being asked to consent to being a sub category of their sex is absolutely relevant and it is absolutely happening. If you are happy to go along with it, you also must accept that others are not. The consideration some people seem very keen to give to males identifying as women, does seem lacking when it is females who need consideration for their needs. There are too many women who are in more vulnerable positions than the majority of these males who certainly have their own challenges. But feminism should always be centring females.

And that also means transmen. Which the OP has stated they are happy to be in the group with if I remember rightly. However, transmen also need to be cognisant of the needs of others and pushing for gender neutral language is making communicating vital health messages meaningless and that harms other women.

There does need to be a meeting of minds, but it is certainly not eroding the language around women. It is certainly not using offensive dehumanising terms. It is also not using gender neutral terms in an attempt to 'fix' discrimination.

So you believe trans inclusive spaces should suddenly stop being inclusive on the say so of a new member?

You are just unable to engage with the wider issues here. It's clear why.

those tshirts are nothing at all to do with the trans issue, definitely not

Only in the sense of correcting the strange idea a few people have that some males can be considered female otherwise no need to define something everyone else knows, so no need to bother

I would suggest vexatiously reporting posts that are innocuous, in an attempt to silence one, would be an example of not acting in good faith.

I would agree, whoever it was that did that.

@Quaagars Reporting people because they have a different opinion than you could be considered not in good faith either.