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Original poster

Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

999 replies

Nc109283485 · 07/01/2021 13:09

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

OP posts:
DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 20:53

But you would agree that a name that doesn't even include thinking of you as a person , calling you a birthing body is offensive?

I personally wouldn't really care. I have recently had surgery and was talked about as a body part, and I wasn't fussed. I absolutely get that some (maybe most) people would, and their wishes should be expressed in their notes and adhered to.

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 20:57

I said more neutral language would help combat them feeling the need to do that and being seen on their merits alone

More "neutral" language means hiding women's sex. It does nothing to deal with the problem except conceal it. It is not a solution. It is the avoidance of searching for a solution. You really have no clue here.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 21:00

More "neutral" languagemeanshiding women's sex.

More neutral language means neutral, for everyone, not just women.

It is the avoidance of searching for a solution.

In your opinion, in my opinion it is part of the solution.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 21:01

You refused to comment on something becuase you said you weren't qualified to speak on the subject. But many of the tras are straight white males who actually don't care about the inclusion of trans people but are just using the platform to shit on women. To the point that many actually trans people want nothing to to do with them. Still they complain and comment on things that by your reasoning you would agree that they have no right to do but organisations capitulate anyway.

I'm.amazed actually that the need to be spoken to and treated as a human being /person and not as a piece of meat is something you feel should be put in the small.print on some hospital notes as opposed to being the default.

I mean thats a low bar...

Funneth · 09/01/2021 21:05

Anyone who believes it's wrong to use the long-established word 'woman' in such a suitable context wants sectioning under the 1983 Mental Health Act, case closed.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 21:09

I have spoken upthread about TRAs and my views on them.

I'm.amazed actually that the need to be spoken to and treated as a human being /person and not as a piece of meat is something you feel should be put in thesmall.printon some hospital notes as opposed to being the default.

I didn't say it should be the default, I said people should express their wishes on their notes. If they prefer to be called a birthing body, or anything else, their preference should be expressed on their notes.

Deathgrip · 09/01/2021 21:10

I am in several endometriosis Facebook groups where this row breaks out almost daily at the moment. Vast majority of members massively objecting to being referred to as “people with vaginas”, a small number very angry every time the word woman is used. Same as some maternity related groups - some people lose their mind at the term mothers, others hate “birthing person” etc - it’s exhausting.

Deathgrip · 09/01/2021 21:13

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

More "neutral" languagemeanshiding women's sex.

More neutral language means neutral, for everyone, not just women.

It is the avoidance of searching for a solution.

In your opinion, in my opinion it is part of the solution.

Perhaps if endometriosis are vaginismus or endometriosis are seen as conditions that affect “people” rather than women, they’ll finally get some decent research funding.

Oh wait, no they won’t, because everyone still knows they affect women, but just aren’t allowed to say so.

Nameitychangity · 09/01/2021 21:14

It IS exhausting.
We can console ourselves with the fact that we have biology, evolution, science, common sense, reason, reality and history on our side.
That will never change despite the belief of a certain subset.
2 plus 2 will ALWAYS AND FOREVER be 4. Never 5.
And they can't stand it.

TheBuffster · 09/01/2021 21:15

But birthing bodies wasn't chosen in this case, it was foisted upon the group in question.

Funneth · 09/01/2021 21:16

'Birthing bodies' lmfao get a grip, please.
Might as well refer to men as 'wanking bodies'

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 21:27

More neutral language means neutral, for everyone, not just women.
So how would that work exactly? Talk me through it. Give me some examples of neutral language that negates the discrimination that women face in practically all areas of life? You are acting as if men and women face the same problems and by erasing sex markers we erase all sex discrimination. However, men and women are not equally discriminated against and it is not possible to do what you're advocating. Now go away and read Invisible Women and then explain to us how hiding a problem is actually solving it. Confused

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 22:23

But birthing bodies wasn't chosen in this case, it was foisted upon the group in question

Creates quite the dilemma doesn't it. Do you continue to police women and their language or do you police eachother and instill boundaries with regards to inclusive language.

When the word women becomes more offensive than the term birthing bodies how can anyone actually defend it? If at that point you don't realise how much hatred is directed at you as a woman and continue to defend usage of terms such as gestational carrier and birthing bodies even in articles involving women dying, then how do you even cone back from it.

Give an inch and you have to accept others will take a mile and you then have no control over how far it goes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 23:23

2 plus 2 will ALWAYS AND FOREVER be 4. Never 5.

And Paris has never been, is not, and never will be the capital of Spain. Whatever anyone may assert to the contrary.

Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 00:01

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

It isn't just about women though. Trans women who still have their penis should be allowed to comfortably discuss issues relevant to them as well.

Personally I don't see the big deal to say 'they' instead of he or she, or to say 'everyone' instead of ladies or gentlemen, or to do away with Mr, Ms, Mrs etc. In fact, I think more neutral language would be beneficial a lot of the time.

Anyone can set up a group and decide the rules for that group, they aren't held at gunpoint and forced to join in if they don't feel comfortable.

Trans women who still have their penis Again, they are not trans women if they still have a penis. They are a man. Plain, clear and simple.
Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 00:39

One in 10 people who have periods.

'People' don't have periods. Women do!

Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 00:46

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

You could be male. You could have any number of male children.

Very true, I would say ciswoman but I know that's an offensive term on here. See how I changed my language to suit my audience and not cause offence. Easy, wasn't it.

Ciswoman is an offensive term in most places, not just on here.
Quaagars · 10/01/2021 00:49

@Cokie3

One in 10 people who have periods.

'People' don't have periods. Women do!

So do trans men (biologically female for clarity)
Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 00:57

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

And yet you seem to advocate 51% of the entire FUCKING POPULATION changing their rules and language to suit the TINY TINY minority of people with an issue. The 51% has to change to make the minority 'more comfortable'.

Oh, I thought I said that it would be good if everyone changed to more neutral language, not just women. Dont let what I actually said get in the way of your narrative though Smile

It has been explained to you that neutral language is harmful when it comes to medical issues. You completely ignore that. The only reason you want 'neutral' language is because men are changing all the words and you want to bend for them. Despite how harmful and dangerous that is. You'd rather change to 'neutral language' to appease men, than stick to tried, true and appropriate gender language.
Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 01:02

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm not, no, I am not black, I have no black loved ones, I wouldn't speak on behalf of a group of people who's struggles I have no idea about as I don't feel qualified to do so.

I have my opinions, of course but I'm not going to debate about something I don't have much of a clue about.

I'm not disabled, and I don't have any disabled loved ones. However I recognise grossly dehumanising language when I hear it and could call it out if I heard it about disabled people, or black people. You should try it.

Well said!

And the attempt to avoid discussing examples (clearly because a] it doesn't fit their narrative and b] then they'd have to actually wrestle with their conscience via examining the facts) is pure cowardice considering they themselves engaged much 'whataboutery' throughout this thread. It is so easy though to just not answer a valid question that you know will trip you up.

Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 01:13

So do trans men (biologically female for clarity)

No they don't. If they were truly trans men who had transitioned (hence the 'trans' prefix), they would no longer have a uterus or ovaries.

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 10/01/2021 02:23

@Cokie3

So do trans men (biologically female for clarity)

No they don't. If they were truly trans men who had transitioned (hence the 'trans' prefix), they would no longer have a uterus or ovaries.

You missed the memo Cokie- it’s transphobic to force surgery onto people to make them conform to society’s expectations.

The current definition of trans is someone who says they’re trans. They don’t have to have surgery, a GRC, to have taken hormones, or even to wear wo/men’s clothes - they are broadening the bandwidth of what it means to be a wo/man by saying “I am one” because gender isn’t about your body or your clothes, or your face, or your name, or anything tangible. It’s just how you feeeeeeeereel.

Apparently being trans now doesn’t have anything to do with transitioning from one state to another. It’s some inherent mismatch that can’t be seen, proven or explained, but must be respected and legislated for at all costs.

Quaagars · 10/01/2021 02:31

it’s transphobic to force surgery onto people to make them conform to society’s expectations

What?
Where has anyone said that Confused

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 10/01/2021 02:33

Cokie said above that someone would only be a trans man if they’d had their uterus removed. Literally one post above mine.

Cokie3 · 10/01/2021 03:37

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