Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

If a woman showed up to a hospital clearly pregnant but denying that fact the drs would probably call someone for them to talk to to establish of she was mentally stable enough to understand. We wouldn't have drs accept she wasn't pregnant.

I don't know the circumstances around the trans man you mentioned so am unaware if it was clear or anything else however if a woman went to hospital and didn't want to be examined, should she be forced to undergo an examination and tests she didn't want to have?

No. But the difference is the drs would not go along with thr lie woukd they. They would have to accept that there was no consent. But they wouldn't have to collude in something that wasn't true

They wouldn't draw up medication for an anorexic based on the weight they thought they were and pretend he or she realky was 14 stone.

If someone says to you " im.not pregnant im a man" even if you suspect otherwise would you expect everyone to carry on acting as if that were the case?

Unaware but happy to post whataboutery!

Google maybe

metro.co.uk/2019/05/20/pregnant-transgender-mans-baby-died-because-nurse-didnt-realize-he-was-in-labor-9613972/

An article much discussed here at the time. Mainly because most posters are not transphobic, do not fear trans people but could foresee, and have been discussing, such horrible outcomes from messing about with the language.

Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

This is about the ops interpretation of what was messaged. Op felt it was aggressive. It doesn't read as though it was aggressive to me.

It sounds like an explanation that its a trans inclusive group, and then has an a) b) or c) question to make sure op understands its a trans inclusive group.

If op put men, or women, she would probably not be accepted as its inclusive.

so presumably "everyone" here is meant to include men and women

Or women and trans men.

We have no idea as the op didn't message and question further to get information, she merely labeled the question as aggressive and decided not to join the group and start this thread instead.

She was justifiably worried that this wasn't a female-only group and didn't feel at ease discussing intimate details with males.

The op has every right to choose who to discuss her issues with, of course, she may have cause to be concerned, or maybe not. She chose not to get that information.

This is a female only group, although that may mean there are some trans men present. For this reason we would ask all members to address the group as "Dear Everyone" rather than "Dear ladies""

Some trans men do not wish to be referred to as trans men. This group obviously accepts that, so such a question wouldn't be inclusive of them. The admin of the group has chosen to word things in a specific way that is comfortable for them and they shouldn't have to change that because a potential new member, who could simply choose to join a different group, wants it to be different.

If a transman is finding PIV sex painful, might this be because their vagina is atrophying due to testosterone, and nothing to do with vaginismus?

Some trans men do not wish to be referred to as trans men.

Why are you referring to them as "trans men" when they don't identify as trans men, then? Why are we expected to conceptualise these female people as "men" when they don't want to be referred to as men?

Ultimately groups that ask for this "inclusive" language are asking its members to collude in something that is actively harmful for them.

I guess to some pronouns and greetings seem.small.

But many of us have also seen it usually extends to other aspects of the group.

I really do not want to participate in something that has the potential to cause harm.

It would do me no favours fir example to pretend I'm a healthy weight and I'm fine when realky I could use to lose a few pounds and saying I'm.fat may seem cruel but it won't kill me. Pretending I'm.a size 10 akd perfectly healthy and not seeking medical help fir any weight related issues would be dangerous however.

I dont want to do that to people. It doesn't feel right. ..

Some trans men do not wish to be referred to as trans men.

So, if there is a slight possibility that someone who is a trans man does not want to be referred to as a trans man, woman, or any other factually correct, non-offensive term, it is quite alright to aggressively tell potential members that this overrides any qualms they may have or any preferences they may have even if they (as "natal" women) are highly-likely to be if not the only people in the group, the vast majority. Well, I tell you something, it is heartening to see that you so openly admit that even theoretical trans feelings are more important than women's actual feelings. Yeah, yeah I know ....if the OP doesn't like it she can just set up her own group, build her own network etc etc....until of course someone decides that it is not enough and that she has to prioritise someone else's theoretical* feelings again and she's back to square one.

• And yes, they are largely theoretical feelings because the trans people I know would not actually dream of being so crass - for the most part the people doing this are self-described "allies" who are doing their very best to damage trans rights whether they understand that or not.

No. But the difference is the drs would not go along with thr lie woukd they. They would have to accept that there was no consent. But they wouldn't have to collude in something that wasn't true

Having read the article, thank you CuriousaboutSamphire for linking it, I can see the patient had already done a home test and knew they were pregnant, and that they lied about peeing themselves when it was their waters breaking.

If a patient, any patient, goes to hospital and lies about their medical condition then there will be problems.

Its heartbreaking, but this was clearly a very troubled individual and a very tragic outcome.

(I would also put some of the blame on the American health care system and the patient having to fund their medication as and when they can afford it)

What kind of hope do we ever have to get it 'right' then? Okay, We won't call them 'women', because they don't think of themselves as such and don't like it. They want to be called something else. Okay, we'll call them 'trans men'. That should be okay, no? Oh wait a minute, some of them don't like that either it seems. So are we just to call them 'men' then? How are we now supposed to differentiate between biological men and 'those' men then? Especially when it becomes paramount to know the difference in certain medical emergencies or situations. It's a literal minefield, once mis-step and you're a biggoted transphobe. And neutral 'they's' and 'thems' are utterly ridiculous.
There are literally no words to describe people now that keep them happy are there? Apart from the 'lie' which I for one will not be a part of perpetuating.

And drs agreeing to change medical records

Your sex should be recorded accurately on medical.recirds

www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/our-services/services-we-offer/pathology/haematology/haematology-reference-ranges/

Here

You will.see the ranges differ with somethings with regards to age or sex

Allowing trans patients to alter their records shouldn't be allowed

Well, I tell you something, it is heartening to see that you so openly admit that even theoretical trans feelings are more important than women's actual feelings.

Isn't it. It's all so much about power.

What kind of hope do we ever have to get it 'right' then? Okay, We won't call them 'women', because they don't think of themselves as such and don't like it. They want to be called something else. Okay, we'll call them 'trans men'. That should be okay, no? Oh wait a minute, some of them don't like that either it seems. So are we just to call them 'men' then?

Which is presumably why the group OP wanted to join asked which they would be more likely to say - as it's an inclusive group I'd have said "everyone" that way trans men who needed the group would be covered too.
They're including both women and trans men there.
Saying e

Why are you referring to them as "trans men" when they don't identify as trans men, then?

I explained early on in the thread that on MN I use the term trans men because people get faux confused when I say 'man'. I change my language for the comfort of the audience on here, and it isn't all that difficult.

it is quite alright to aggressively tell potential members that this overrides any qualms they may have

Which part of before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. is aggressive?

It's a literal minefield, once mis-step and you're a biggoted transphobe.

YY. And women's rights and our political sex class are either the target or collateral damage.

No idea what that random half sentence on the end was supposed to be lol

because people get faux confused when I say 'man'.

Like you got "faux confused" when I specifically asked whether males should be in a female only group. I'm pretty sure you know what I meant, and aren't really a biology denialist. Just disingenuous.

Fascinated by your encounter with the TRAs though, and why it's left you so anti them. I guess you must understand the concerns raised a little bit, for all your equivocation.

Like you got "faux confused" when I specifically asked whether males should be in a female only group.

I didn't get confused at all. My opinion is that trans men are men, yours isn't. I answered in accordance with my own views.

Fascinated by your encounter with the TRAs though, and why it's left you so anti them. I guess you must understand the concerns raised a little bit, for all your equivocation.

I absolutely understand the concerns. 100% and have spoken out against TRAs many times. They have damaged my life a huge amount.

I don't fully support every area of the trans debate, and have spoken out and made steps to change parts of it as well.

That doesn't mean that I agree an already established, inclusive group should have to change their policies though.

That doesn't mean that I agree an already established, inclusive group should have to change their policies though

Even when those policies contribute to the very issue the members will be having by obscuring who its happening to and the problems that causes ?

Even when those policies contribute to the very issue the members will be having by obscuring who its happening to and the problems that causes ?

This is a facebook support group that we are talking about here. It sounds like the members who wish to join are treated as individuals.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's only a woman's issue.

This 100 times this

Individuals who may well discover they have suffered similar fates due to ethnicity or location or whatever.

You cant solve problems if you cant see them so introducing policies that by their very nature remove the ability to describe significant facts about yourself or discover them about others are problematic.

If they all end up in a discussion about a netfkix show one might it doesn't matter. If it turns out a significant number of Asian women living in Slough aged between 25 and 30 are being treated in unapproved ways then you won't be able to discover that and find support or strength or whatever if certain key facts are not allowed to be mentioned fir fear of other members being offended at being excluded.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's a literal minefield, once mis-step and you're a biggoted transphobe.

YY. And women's rights and our political sex class are either the target or collateral damage.

You are so right , our grandmothers battles are being disregarded because of mens " sensitivity "

didn't get confused at all. My opinion is that trans men are men, yours isn't. I answered in accordance with my own views.

No i didn't use "men". Below is my comment which you responded to.

Male and female don't both mean opposite things and the same thing do they, even in your upside down ideological belief system? Either female is a term for "women and trans men" or it isn't and "males" can equally be trans men (FTM) and might be excluded from a "female only" group (including MTF trans people). We all know perfectly well they are biologically female, as you demonstrate here.

So you weren't even consistent with your own views, let alone mine. You purely saw it as an opportunity to disingenuously play "faux confused". It seems like you really are a bit confused though.