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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

999 replies

Nc109283485 · 07/01/2021 13:09

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

OP posts:
Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 15:40

Maybe you could explain to me why you think that a term that includes a set of people who have this issue, and doesn't disclude anyone else is devisive.
I have no idea what you mean here. Have you read the original message? You seem very caught up on terms but you do not seem able to recognise tone or intent.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 15:40

The only time transmen are remotely newsworthy is when they have a baby.

We know transmen arent really listened to in the scheme of things because well they are biologically women and we all know women aren't listened to. Not unless they possess a certain body part anyway.

There are very very very few middle aged transmen suddenly coming out.

Quaagars · 09/01/2021 15:46

There are very very very few middle aged transmen suddenly coming out

You know this how? Because you don't see them as much in the news?
There was someone in their thirties so an "older" trans man and not just teenagers like everybody seems to think are the only ones on here.
Elliot I think he was called?
Not sure what middle age has to do with anything really, if you're trans you're trans whatever age you are.
In your late teens, twenties, thirties, forties or whatever.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 15:51

Well that all comes down sadly tho things we aren't allowed to discuss.

Which of course allows people to pretend they have no idea ...

We aren't buying it though just so you know.

Quaagars · 09/01/2021 15:53

Well that all comes down sadly tho things we aren't allowed to discuss

Thought that's what the poster was trying to insinuate, thanks for clarifying.
Do you think it's right that there should be discussions that trans people are doing it for sexual kicks and they're all the same?

Quaagars · 09/01/2021 15:54

The poster, sorry just seen it was you - so what you were trying to insinuate by saying very few trans men come out later on....

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 15:55

However women aren't being excluded from this group due to the use of a neutral way of greeting.

This is what the OP actually wrote -Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

This is NOT a neutral greeting. The OP is quite right to feel worried that men will be present and quite right to feel annoyed that this is what she is expected to answer before even entering the group. There are plenty of ways to be inclusive to trans men - this is not inclusive. It is crass and divisive. Why are you so intent on defending it?

You seem very caught up on terms but you do not seem able to recognise tone or intent.

I know exactly what your tone, and intent are.

There is nothing about the question that is devisive. It's a question. The question makes it apparent that the group uses trans inclusive language. There is no part of welcoming trans men into a group that is devisive. You seem to think there is for some reason. I genuinely cannot understand why including someone with a vagina, in a group about people having a problem with their vagina, is devisive at all.

There are very very very few middle aged transmen suddenly coming out.

We obviously move in different circles. I know a few.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 15:56

I'm.saying that penny mordant promised us an investigation into the very recent 4000 percent increase in girls wishing to transition.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 15:56

If you can't say "women" you can't connect the dots. You're left with a random collection of health care issues of no more political significance than the overlap of verruca sufferers and tonsil stone sufferers.

Exactly. Perfectly put.

Quaagars · 09/01/2021 15:58

The question makes it apparent that the group uses trans inclusive language. There is no part of welcoming trans men into a group that is devisive.
I genuinely cannot understand why including someone with a vagina, in a group about people having a problem with their vagina, is devisive at all

Exactly

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 16:03

I know exactly what your tone, and intent are.

Well you obviously don't. And you don't understand the tone of the original message. I think there is little point in continuing the discussion as you just avoid the issue and talk about "terms". I'll be charitable and put it down to maybe not having much experience of English but it really is not a welcoming message. And repeatedly saying it is not "devisive" and talking about me not wanting trans men in the group (not true) is not helping your case. At all.

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 16:04

I know exactly what your tone, and intent are.

And by the way, while we are talking about tone, the tone of your message to me could be interpreted as threatening which is against the spirit and the regulations of mumsnet.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 16:06

Its actually quite simple.

So called inclusive language excludes a heck of alot of people. It is harmful particularly to women because if you hide who it happens to you hide the issues women as a sex class face.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 16:08

I think there is little point in continuing the discussion as you just avoid the issue and talk about "terms". I'll be charitable and put it down to maybe not having much experience of English but it really is not a welcoming message.

Of course you don't want to explain why including transmen is devisive. I haven't avoided any issue on this thread at all, I have discussed the questions put to me at length. Thanks for being so charitable though Smile

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 16:10

And by the way, while we are talking about tone, the tone of your message to me could be interpreted as threatening which is against the spirit and the regulations of mumsnet.

I have not been threatening in any way, shape or form. I'll put your interpretation of that down to not having much understanding of English though since we are being charitable Smile

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 16:13

Of course you don't want to explain why including transmen is devisive

Oh FFS.....READ what I actually write if you want to respond. I never said that including transmen was divisive (with an I - yes, petty and I wouldn't normally correct but seeing as you seem intent on writing it continually....) I said that the tone of the message was divisive. You don't seem to be able to understand or comment on this aspect which means either 1) you are doing it deliberately as a wind up or 2) you don't understand.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 16:17

you don't understand.

I don't understand. I literally said I don't understand.

I asked you to explain why. You declined.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 16:18

There was actually a case of a trans man having a still born baby because they were allowed to deny the fact they were female and no one checked and ran a pregnancy test.

Inclusive language also results in denying reality including when its medically relevant. We do have to ask if its safe and if its helpful and are we really " being kind" by going along with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 16:20

So called inclusive language excludes a heck of alot of people. It is harmful particularly to women because if you hide who it happens to you hide the issues women as a sex class face.

YY.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 09/01/2021 16:21

There was actually a case of a trans man having a still born baby because they were allowed to deny the fact they were female and no one checked and ran a pregnancy test.

There have also been cases of women declining pregnancy tests, refusing to see doctors, hiding pregnancies etc.

Individuals in all walks of life make poor decisions and tragic consequences come from that. It stands to reason that some of those individuals will be trans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 16:23

Yes, people lie in all sorts of circumstances. But we shouldn't be enshrining lies in policy and law.

Whatwouldscullydo · 09/01/2021 16:24

If a woman showed up to a hospital clearly pregnant but denying that fact the drs would probably call someone for them to talk to to establish of she was mentally stable enough to understand. We wouldn't have drs accept she wasn't pregnant.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 16:25

If sex and gender are different and people acknowledge there is such a thing as biological sex, why is their so much objection to saying "female"?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/01/2021 16:25

there FFS

Hollybutnoivy · 09/01/2021 16:27

Listen - I will recopy what I wrote above which you seem incapable of rereading on your own and then I will break it down for you:

*This is what the OP actually wrote - Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

This is NOT a neutral greeting. The OP is quite right to feel worried that men will be present and quite right to feel annoyed that this is what she is expected to answer before even entering the group. There are plenty of ways to be inclusive to trans men - this is not inclusive. It is crass and divisive. Why are you so intent on defending it?*

The OP was expecting to join a female only group (possibly including transmen, possibly not). She was given the gateway question which included the mention of women, men and everyone (so presumably "everyone" here is meant to include men and women). She was justifiably worried that this wasn't a female-only group and didn't feel at ease discussing intimate details with males. In my opinion, it would have been far more inclusive to state "This is a female only group, although that may mean there are some trans men present. For this reason we would ask all members to address the group as "Dear Everyone" rather than "Dear ladies"". That would have been inclusive. Trying to trip women up with a woke shibboleth when they are probably already nervous about talking about an intimate problem is the very opposite of inclusive.

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