Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

though there is also a risk of violence and abuse against transgender women

So why is that women's responsibility to sort out?

dailybruin.com/2019/05/28/students-voice-concerns-about-bathroom-policy-security-camera-monitoring

In fact fully enclosed / floor to ceiling dividers are discriminatory..

So why is that women's responsibility to sort out?

It's not, nor have I said it should be.

Well then.what are you saying?

Women sorted out the problem. We fought fir years fir sex segregated spaces so we could work, go out , live etc now apparently that all has to change because men cant be trusted along side gender non.conforming male people. That's a mens issue to solve. Also if males don't want females in the form.of transmen in their spaces then they need to stand up for their spaces. Or just let transmen get on with it if they don't care . Either way that's their problem . Women will continue to fight for their sex based rights.

@coolitcathy

Transmen are welcome in the womens toilets. They have womens bodies amd womens loos are set up with bins and vending machines for the function of those bodies.

This is a picture of a guy named Ajay Holbrook, he's a twenty-something year old FTM bodybuilder. This is just an example and I could find others, but I imagine if he tried to go into the ladies loos, it would make a lot of people very uncomfortable.

I’ve been trying to think of a good way to word this...here goes!

I suffer from PTSD brought on by serious SA when younger. It can be triggered (god how that word is overused now!) by being in a confined space with a strange male.

And, well trying to put this in a non transphobic way, I’ve met a trans man a couple of years ago who looked very similar to the person in that photo. And I can definitely say that they wouldn’t trigger me at all if they were in the bathroom.

They looked very male, if a little shorter than usual. BUT the way they moved, their voice (despite being deeper - I’m assuming due to hormone therapy), their mannerisms, just everything else about them said ‘female’ to my brain.

So I would be happy for them to be in a bathroom alone with me. However, what started me looking in to this debate was meeting a trans woman in my gym changing room early last year. This did trigger a huge panic attack for me, everything about them screamed ‘male! danger!’ (Because of the male bit, not the trans woman but) I felt intense guilt because I knew I ‘should’ see this person as a female.

I’m still pretty new to this debate but can vaguely remember reading that the criminal offence rates are the same in trans women as in men. If the opposite is true (trans men offence rates same as women’s) then I would be happy for any trans man, whether they looked like the above photo or not, to be in women and children’s safe spaces.

Why should the VAST majority of women be made to feel uncomfortable just to satisfy the needs of the very few? If someone insisted that oranges were now the colour blue, because that is how they saw them, would the whole world have to change their perception of what colour an orange was, and actually be forced to use a different name for the orange for fear of upsetting the 'OAB (oranges are BLUE) crowd? Even though everyone could blatantly see that the orange is fucking ORANGE and will always be orange?
The majority of women will be uncomfortable sharing a bathroom or other womens space with someone who is a bloke. Simple as.

considering some people view these people as "women"

They're female. They are women, because woman means adult human female.

OAB!
My colour blind friend sees pink as orange. Can you imagine what the girls and boys aisles look like to him?

This is just an example and I could find others, but I imagine if he tried to go into the ladies loos, it would make a lot of people very uncomfortable.

That's very considerate of you. Do you feel that should apply to all butch female people of indeterminate sex? I always wonder why people see this as a gotcha. Is it all about passing to you? The existence of a tiny number of female people who look like men doesn't mean that women feel ok to share single sex female spaces with males who look like men, as the vast majority of MTF trans people do.

The only way it is not a lie is if the word man now also means woman, which is not exactly helpful for communication is it?

This. Let's be clear. It is a lie. I won't be forced to lie.

In Scotland the SNP intend to make it illegal to discriminate in many new ways.

It will be illegal to stop a male who declares himself female to use girls changing rooms or toilets in a school, to enter female refuges.

the criminal offence rates are the same in trans women as in men

Yes. Women's Place UK (WPUK) commissioned some research which shows this, using UK government stats.

And it's really interesting, @MegtheShark that what you say is pretty common experience - while in photos, sometimes transgender people look like the sex they wish to present as, in person, we can generally tell the correct sex.

I suspect it's something very deep & instinctive to do with reproduction (we reproduce sexually, which is why there are 2 sexes, no more no fewer).

Also, I think it's getting to a really unsatisfactory situation when women can only claim their space by having to disclose trauma/assault as you have done.

I am one of the fortunate few women who's never been sexually assaulted (I've been violently mugged & beaten up though) but that doesn't mean I have any the less right to a single-sex space if I want it, in situations when I could reasonably expect a space to be single-sex.

We fought fir years fir sex segregated spaces so we could work, go out, live etc

I keep banging on about this, but it is within my living memory that the reason given for women not to get jobs in traditionally and stereotypically male areas of work (generally better paid, ha ha!) was that there were no ladies 'facilities.'

And further back in time - the 1850s - one of the early organised feminist activist campaigns was for safe, private and sanitary public lavatories for women. The lack of safe, sanitary, dignified lavatories was always a reason women were unable to move freely in public spaces.

Remember in the first UK lockdown when councils closed public loos, and the threads in here about the way that this discriminated directly against women (and particularly mothers of small children) from leaving the house?

Bizarre how one can know who to exclude and not provide facilities for whilst simultaneously pretending we don't actually exist..

@QueenoftheAir thank you it’s what brought me in to this debate last year (that I naively didn’t even know was going on!)

I initially tried to suppress my fear at first as it felt like the kind thing to do. The disconnect between what I was feeling and what I thought I ‘should’ be feeling caused some real issues for me and I believe made my mental health recovery from that particular panic attack worse.

And did it ever open up a HUGE can of worms when I started trying to discuss it in what I thought was a nice kind online group (that I’d been a member of for years). Still sad I had to leave there but the vitriol was shocking. Though quite a few other women were also horrified and left with me. We now have quite a cosy smaller group (women only - which is what we all thought the other one was) so at least that worked out.

vitriol was shocking

I always find it extraordinary to see the hatred and contempt for women sometimes expressed by people who wish they were women.

It shows just how powerful social conditioning and socialisation into masculinity and femininity can be.

But surely pre-op trans men (or trans men choosing not to have the op) have vaginas and some would therefore suffer from vaginismus? Perhaps a separate support group for men with vaginismus might be more appropriate but it would probably be a small group..

I think there may be a bit if a new focus on facebook women's groups.

This week I've read admin notes on women's business groups about them having talked to 'an advisor' and making sure that we are all.on the same page being inclusive to all women and being invited to toddle off if I disagreed.

I asked one of she had approached or been approached by the transwoman advisor and if she had stopped to wonder why she was being asked to override the group's stated intention in being by and for women... she told me I didn't understand the complexities and that biology had changed a lot in the last few years! That is now on the About info.

I left both groups.

I don't care if a group is inclusive. But I join some women's groups for a reason. I do care about being told to mind my manners, to accept lies without question and to re educate myself - in a subject I have 2 degrees in and taught for a couple of decades!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I think there may be a bit if a new focus on facebook women's groups.

This week I've read admin notes on women's business groups about them having talked to 'an advisor' and making sure that we are all.on the same page being inclusive to all women and being invited to toddle off if I disagreed.

I asked one of she had approached or been approached by the transwoman advisor and if she had stopped to wonder why she was being asked to override the group's stated intention in being by and for women... she told me I didn't understand the complexities and that biology had changed a lot in the last few years! That is now on the About info.

I left both groups.

I don't care if a group is inclusive. But I join some women's groups for a reason. I do care about being told to mind my manners, to accept lies without question and to re educate myself - in a subject I have 2 degrees in and taught for a couple of decades!

Biology has changed a lot

Jesus bloody Christ, eh Curious? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that.

she told me I didn't understand the complexities and that biology had changed a lot in the last few years!

She needs to read the 2010 Equalities Act, and the legal advice around it which is pretty clear that it is perfectly legal to set up a group for women only.

And she also needs to go back to biology class ...

Surely a vaginismus support group should focus solely on people suffering from vaginismus. I am a woman, with a vagina, and I wouldn’t fell it appropriate for me to join such a group because, thankfully, I have never experienced the condition. It would feel uncomfortably voyeuristic to join such a group.
I think this group is missing the point completely if their first communication is entirely focused on gender identity rather than the condition itself and it would make me wonder if it was open to people with no personal experience of vaginismus. That’s the issue that would concern me if I was in the OP’s position, rather than the gender identity of other group members. Yes, gender politics is important, but so are a lot of other things. The sex/gender of the sufferer isn’t the primary issue here, it’s the suffering itself.

The harsh reality is, if this lady had tried to join a support group for impotence, prostate or testicular cancer or male pattern balding support, she would royally have been to piss right off and no mistake. But when the shoes on the other foot, we just need to suck it right up and 'be kind' and not get our frillies in a twist.

not get our frillies in a twist

The only people allowed to get their frillies in a twist are transwomen.

The only people allowed to get their frillies in a twist are transwomen.

And people who wish to join a facebook group who obviously has trans inclusive admin and a trans inclusive policy and then complain about that rather than find another group apparently.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

The only people allowed to get their frillies in a twist are transwomen.

And people who wish to join a facebook group who obviously has trans inclusive admin and a trans inclusive policy and then complain about that rather than find another group apparently.

So the one who is made to leave the group is the one whom a) is that groups target audience ie a woman who is suffering with the medical condition only affecting women whom that groups sole purpose is to help, and b) must now go and either set up her own group and be labelled as exclusionary, or find a group with common sense which recognises that only biological woman actually need their help (if any such groups actually still exist). Fantastic. Woman forced to abandon hopes of help in a womans group suffering with an exclusively womans medical condition, for fear she might offend a non-woman of whatever origin, who has joined the group for reasons unknown. It makes perfect sense.