Do I have a right to be angry about this? (Trans related)

[Nc109283485]

Nc for obvious reasons. This is a very personal issue to me which I am understandably sensitive about, so this may be why I feel this way. I am perfectly happy to be told I AMBU! I believe trans people deserve love and respect and a happy life just like everyone else. So why did this concern and anger me?

I have a condition called vaginismus which has been very traumatic and caused me lots of grief over my life. In my eyes it is a very personal and female problem. (Look if up if you're not sure what it is).

I have tried to join a support group on a social media platform to really get to the bottom of it and sort it out. I wont say which one as dont want to 'out' either myself or the group involved. My request was pending and a message sent. I assumed this was to confirm I definitely suffer from this condition and to make sure I wasn't some strange pervert, but no! The administrator messaged me to say that before I was accepted I would have to answer a 'test question' as this is a gender inclusive group. Will I be addressing group members as 'ladies, men or everyone'. The tone felt quite aggressive and if I did not pass this test I would not be admitted.

My first thought was are men allowed to enter this group? Do I really have to speak about my vagina in front of 'everyone'? Why not say hello ladies (and the occasional transman who currently has issues with their vagina) no I have to address everyone? Wtf?

I honestly don't know what to think right now but this group clearly isn't for me. But maybe I just need some re-education?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The point is that you don't have the right to tell someone else that they are NOT a woman, or to request that they be excluded based on your own terms.

Yes, I do. And my "own terms" are defined in the Equality Act 2010. The gaslighting is real.

If I don't have the right to tell someone they are not a woman, then exactly where does it end. Is there any limit to what people can claim to be? If someone claimed to be a 12 year old girl and they were actually a 50 year old man, is it against their rights and would offend their sensibilities if I pointed out to them that actually, that wasn't quite true? What if they claimed to be a reincarnation of Queen Victoria? How about the recent scandal with Hilaria Baldwin claiming to be from a heritage she is not part of? Why has it been okay to lambast her (rightly in my opinion) all over the press because she claimed to be something she was not, but I am forced to go along with something that is clearly not true for fear of infringing on their rights? If I claim to be a food mixer tomorrow and insist that everyone now refers to me as such, and tell you you have no right to point out that I'm actually a human female, wouldn't that be utterly ridiculous? Yet of course, no-one can point out that the Emperor is actually wearing no clothes, because they are afraid of the consequences.

The point is that you don't have the right to tell someone else that they are NOT a woman, or to request that they be excluded based on your own terms.

//

If you genuinely believe this statement I suggest you Google an individual like Johnathan Yaniv who enjoys spending time in ladies toilets offering young girls assistance inserting tampons.

Then ask yourself "what could possibly go wrong?".

@NoToMisogyny

Trans people getting abuse is not something women need to worry about - we receive a LOT more abuse ourselves and not many transpeople seem to give a fuck?

It’s men who need to accept their more feminine brothers. Men who need to stop making both women and trans afraid.

Either way, women are not human defence shields for men afraid of other men.

This. With bells on.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

The point is that you don't have the right to tell someone else that they are NOT a woman, or to request that they be excluded based on your own terms.

//

If you genuinely believe this statement I suggest you Google an individual like Johnathan Yaniv who enjoys spending time in ladies toilets offering young girls assistance inserting tampons.

Then ask yourself "what could possibly go wrong?".

Sorry ... should also have asked -

And that you g girl can't question his presence and sex?

If you genuinely believe this statement I suggest you Google an individual like Johnathan Yaniv who enjoys spending time in ladies toilets offering young girls assistance inserting tampons.

Jessica Yaniv is an attention seeker and a predator. I think they would be those things irrespective of their transgender identity, though that identity potentially is a good way to spark more attention.

I can also link some more positive transgender individuals in the limelight - Sam Collins, Nikkie De Jager, Elliot Page, Hunter Schafer, Natalie Wynn etc.

Jessica Yaniv is an attention seeker and a predator. I think they would be those things irrespective of their transgender identity, though that identity potentially is a good way to spark more attention

But they highlight the issues surely? You either feel the definition is open to anyone who wants it or you don't? You cant kick out everyone who shows how problematic it is.

I assume, that some trans-men also have vaginismus and would feel uncomfortable being referred to as "ladies". To be honest, I hate being referred to as "ladies" and my biological sex, gender identity and gender expression generally align!

I debate your use of the word "lie" but I can understand how there may be a blurred line in certain androgynous cases, for example.

Is Elliot Page a woman or a man? The answer is a woman. To answer "a man" is to lie.

The only way it is not a lie is if the word man now also means woman, which is not exactly helpful for communication is it?

But they highlight the issues surely? You either feel the definition is open to anyone who wants it or you don't? You cant kick out everyone who shows how problematic it is.

She identifies as a woman, so I will refer and consider her as such. However, she is also a predatorial piece of shit. I'm not kicking her out of the transgender category, just the "decent human being" one.

@coolitcathy

If you genuinely believe this statement I suggest you Google an individual like Johnathan Yaniv who enjoys spending time in ladies toilets offering young girls assistance inserting tampons.

Jessica Yaniv is an attention seeker and a predator. I think they would be those things irrespective of their transgender identity, though that identity potentially is a good way to spark more attention.

I can also link some more positive transgender individuals in the limelight - Sam Collins, Nikkie De Jager, Elliot Page, Hunter Schafer, Natalie Wynn etc.

But self-ID allows that person to enter girls toilets when they wouldn't previously have been allowed.

I can also link some more positive transgender individuals in the limelight - Sam Collins, Nikkie De Jager, Elliot Page, Hunter Schafer, Natalie Wynn etc.

We make laws on the basis of risk and common sense, not on majority vs minority. There is a reason we have girls toilets and boys toilets in schools, in malls, libraries etc. Most men don't are not paedophiles. Most men aren't sexual offenders. Yet we still have girls and boys toilets or womens and mens. We assess risk. If we didn't, men could change in girls change rooms. Saying, 'oh but here is a list of good trans men/trans women' is like a person saying defending for example Jimmy Savile or Rolf Harris and saying 'here is a list of all children/women who say he did nothing to them'. It's not a great analogy I know, but it's the best I can think of at this moment. We make laws on the basis of risk, on the basis of comfort, on the basis of safety. The fact that someone is able to enter toilets and deem it appropriate to approach girls and teach them how to insert tampons inside their vaginas should, should, ring alarm bells to any person. To any human being reading that. To any member of the homo sapien species that possesses common sense, compassion, human decency, and care and concern for the most vulnerable. That, is more than enough justification and reason on it's own. That people attempt to say 'oh well they are not all like that, for example this list of people....' is truly sad and shows people will stubbornly and desperately flail about for an excuse, a justification, a reason. One, is one too many. And there is no justification for any male being in a girls toilet bar medical emergency or accident.

But you would agree that it shows that the removal of safeguarding in order to accommodate perceived rights is particularly dangerous to members of the female sex?

Great post Cokie3

Jessica Yaniv is an attention seeker and a predator. I think they would be those things irrespective of their transgender identity, though that identity potentially is a good way to spark more attention

Problem is, transwomen - like men - don't come with signs on them saying "Good one" or "Predator".

Men have preyed on women for millennia, so we need single-sex spaces into which no man (or transwoman) may enter.

Saying, 'oh but here is a list of good trans men/trans women' is like a person saying defending for example Jimmy Savile or Rolf Harris and saying 'here is a list of all children/women who say he did nothing to them'.

Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris were 100% sexual predators, the transgender community are not 100% sexual predators - like any mass group there are discrepancies and abusers, but to equate transgender people en masse with the likes of Savile is an unfair comparison.

Potentially we should just move as a society onto the likes of private bathrooms (e.g. walled, not stalled) in public spaces. Probably more time consuming but if it makes people more comfortable then maybe we shouldn't have public bathrooms at all. There will always be safeguarding concerns.

The fact that someone is able to enter toilets and deem it appropriate to approach girls and teach them how to insert tampons inside their vaginas should, should, ring alarm bells to any person

This example is unacceptable for anyone to do to young girls, if a biological woman attempted it it would be just as much of an issue.

That people attempt to say 'oh well they are not all like that, for example this list of people....' is truly sad and shows people will stubbornly and desperately flail about for an excuse, a justification, a reason. One, is one too many.

What about transgender men that look extremely masculine but who have vaginas? I can't imagine that women who have an issue with "men" being in the bathroom would appreciate someone who looked exactly like a man - and realistically without being entirely offensive and probably commit an assault, there's no way to check someone's biology.

Transmen are welcome in the womens toilets. They have womens bodies amd womens loos are set up with bins and vending machines for the function of those bodies.

If they use the mens then frankly its up to men to defend their spaces.we are barely holding on to ours without having to find the solution for men too. If they object then they need to step up.

Transmen are welcome in the womens toilets. They have womens bodies amd womens loos are set up with bins and vending machines for the function of those bodies.

This is a picture of a guy named Ajay Holbrook, he's a twenty-something year old FTM bodybuilder. This is just an example and I could find others, but I imagine if he tried to go into the ladies loos, it would make a lot of people very uncomfortable.

If they are biologically female then they have a right to be in that soave

In fact its actually a good example.of how women loose out either way. They either have males in the loos . Or women who look like males in the loos, or the women are at risk.of predatory men.if they use the mens.

Males of course do not have increased risk of anything if they use their in spaces or if transmen use them.

Men R of course entitled to the privacy and dignity and their own spaces too

In fact its actually a good example.of how women loose out either way. They either have males in the loos . Or women who look like males in the loos, or the women are at risk.of predatory men.if they use the mens.

I imagine transgender men are at an increased risk of violence though (which considering some people view these people as "women", means "women" are at risk anyway). I agree though, it is disgusting and disappointing that sexual assault is prevalent and people with vaginas are predominantly at the highest risk.

Potentially isolated bathrooms, as I've mentioned upthread, is the way to go then.

Transwomen being assaulted in the mens room is for men to sort out though. Males of any gender presentation should be safe in their own spaces. Women are not here to absorb male violence.

Fully enclosed units have their own risks and I dont see it has to be either the womens or a mixed sex space. The whole " if i cant have it no one can " attitude is very toddler like.

Men need to sort their stuff out. Until then mixed sex spaces put women of any presentation at risk.

Transwomen being assaulted in the mens room is for men to sort out though.

My previous post mentioned transmen being assaulted in the men's room specifically, though there is also a risk of violence and abuse against transgender women (which is prevalent).

Fully enclosed units have their own risks and I dont see it has to be either the womens or a mixed sex space. The whole " if i cant have it no one can " attitude is very toddler like.

People are clearly concerned about their safety, rightly or wrongly - I don't think it's "toddlerlike" to try to come up with a solution to safeguard against that.

cool phew, thank goodness for that. That means that as everyone saw this person for what he is, he wasn't able to sue any beauticians who refused to perform treatments on him ... oh, wait, ..

And if that predatory twat (I'm glad we agree on that ) commits an offence against a woman while in there it's recorded as a crime by women, if that's what that person legally is considered?

It shows the suggestion that I've no right to say someone isn't a woman, as highly flawed. Of course FTM pose no risk.

My DH is a good man who would hate to do anything to harm or make a woman feel uncomfortable. If any one who says they're a woman can come in the ladies changing room at our local pool (when they eventually open!) why not let all of our decent men in too, seeing as how we know that NAMALT. And I know there's the argument that we can't always know 100% as some people "pass" (although this is a small amount as so often we do know somethings not quite right but we're all very kind so wash our hands quickly and move on) I guess the difference is that a decent human being knows the biological females there would be very uncomfortable with a biological Male in with them and would never impose on those boundaries ... unless they just didn't give a shit.

Mixed sex spaces are dangerous for women.

Fully enclosed units dont solve that problem of they open out into a communal mixed sex area. They offer the chance of being pushed in and hurt with no one being able to see . They also mean that if a child uses them and gets locked in no one can slide under or get over the top to help them. Its completely hypocritical realky because if the mens room isn't safe for some males then having a space that allows those males who would assult them to follow them.right in is surely counter productive?

Mixed sex spaces aren't safe for women. They don't benefit women. So what's it solving ?

@coolitcathy

Transmen are welcome in the womens toilets. They have womens bodies amd womens loos are set up with bins and vending machines for the function of those bodies.

This is a picture of a guy named Ajay Holbrook, he's a twenty-something year old FTM bodybuilder. This is just an example and I could find others, but I imagine if he tried to go into the ladies loos, it would make a lot of people very uncomfortable.

And here is a picture of Alex Drummond who identifies as female. Stonewall say “acceptance without question” Alex is a woman if they say they are & we have no right apparently to challenge this. Alex feels it is their right to use any and all female spaces

Either we safeguard or we don’t. If a man is a woman simply by saying they are with no other requirement, how can we ever safeguard women & children? Can you not see the potential for it to be abused?

The problem with threads like this is they go round and round and always end up in the same place because contrary to what Twitter wants you to think, there's no easy solution. If it were as simple as 'Oh bit trans people want to be safe' then the conversation would begin and end at loos. But it doesn't. It is sports, it is prisons, it is women's job roles and quotas, it's crime recording because however much is given up it's never enough. Make a change for all those lovely people posted up thread and the Jessica's and Karen White's are covered too. Which is why many women don't want to give an inch or the proverbial mile is taken.
Many good points made above as to why should women absorb all the risk etc. No good answers as per usual.
People (women) are so socially conditioned to be kind they're gonna kind away their sex based rights.