Moral obligation to have the vaccine. Is one of us being selfish?

[FLOrenze]

We are in our mid 70s and are both very fit. We have strictly observed the rules from the beginning. The on-line calculator says we should be due for the vaccine in February.

DH says he won’t have it yet so that someone further down the line can be vaccinated. I think we have a moral obligation to vaccinate.

His view is that we we only go to the supermarket, we wear masks and wash our hands. I think that even though we have minimal chance of catching the virus he should protect me before others.

He should have it- no doubt about it.
To protect you mostly.
To protect himself so he doesn’t become gravely ill and use the NHS.
To hopefully go some way towards herd immunity and reduce the amount in the community.
But he means well. 😊

That 0.66% rate is an overall rate and the article also says that the chance of mortality increases with age. The 0.66% chance is a low lower than the chance of death for the OP and her OH should they catch it unvaccinated.

Perhaps "the next person on the waiting list" can't get to the vaccination centre in the time allowed, especially since they're in town "hubs" rather than their usual local GP surgery. Perhaps the admin person doesn't have the time to phone several people "next on the waiting list" to try to find someone able to get there at short notice.

I wasn't assuming an admin person would be phoning people up and getting them to come in . Unless the person who doesn't turn up is the last person on the list that day, the next person on the waiting list will already be at the vaccination centre. When I go for a flu vaccination there are always loads of people there waiting.

Success. Thank you so much for all your well reasoned arguments.

It was quite easy, once I had the facts. We have been discussing why the vaccine is going in age order so it was easy to resurrect our discussion. We both felt that the younger people should have it first.

Ok, but then if you do catch it, you end up in the ICU taking up a hospital bed (maybe from cancer patients as well as other covid patients) in an already overwhelmed NHS because you thought you knew better. Everyone offered the vaccine has a moral obligation to take it to increase herd immunity and reduce pressure on hospitals.

Alternatively, you might not catch it and the fact that you haven't been vaccinated may mean that someone who is extremely clinically vulnerable gets vaccinated and doesn't need hospitalisation. The point is there aren't enough vaccines at the moment. If one clinically vulnerable person doesn't have it another clinically vulnerable person will get it so there will not be an increase in hospitalisations as a result.

if you don’t have health issues then there’s only a 0.66% death rate.

Sorry but you have misunderstood the article (or rather the summary, as it says it's just a summary of a longer article based on data from China) 0.66% is across all ages. The summary also says the death rate is 7.8% in the over 80s. The summary didn't give a number for 70-odd but it's likely to be closer to 7.8% than 0.66%.

And as for hospitalisation "it reported that 0.04% of 10-19 year olds would probably require hospital care—as would 1.0% of people in their 20s, 3.4% of people aged 30-39, 4.3% aged 40-49, 8.2% aged 50-59, 11.8% in their 60s, 16.6% in their 70s, and 18.4% of those over 80."

So according to that summary you and your DH each have a 16% chance of needing to go to hospital if you catch it. Getting vaccinated looks the the sensible thing to do for the sake of the NHS.

His view is that we we only go to the supermarket, we wear masks and wash our hands

Assuming that this is pandemic-driven, rather than your normal life - does he expect you to continue restricting your life in this way to protect him because he chooses not to get vaccinated?

@FLOrenze

Under the assumption that the vaccine is safe and will protect him, in your situation I would advise him to take it.

However, it is not known whether he will protecting you health wise by taking the vaccine, as it is not yet known if these vaccines prevent transmission. He will be protecting the NHS and will protect you indirectly as you will not need to care for him, etc if he becomes unwell.

Having said all that, I do not believe anyone should be pushed or made to believe they have a moral obligation to do so, if they do not want to for whatever reason.

personal choice OP. Can't force DH to do anything. But at your ages I would accept the vaccine

As an under-50 who isn't in any of the 9 priority groups (and therefore won't be getting the vaccine until next year, according to the current calculations) I think he is being very silly.

If you are offered the vaccine, just take it. Younger people like me are hardly going to be bumped up the queue in any noticeable way if individuals higher up the list opt out. It would have to happen on such a massive scale to make a real difference.

Have it. A late 70s relative has very mild covid now. I hope it remains so. I’m more concerned about other older relatives he may give it to - they’ve had one vax , which I theory keeps them out of ITU but doesn’t stop them being very unwell at a time when hard rationing choices are being made

Honestly, I think everybody should just have it when called. It is just causing extra work for NHS staff if people start asking for appointments to be rearranged.
I don't personally agree with the priorities as they are currently set out, but, the quicker we all just crack on, the better.

@FLOrenze he needs to understand that unless he is wearing a fully fitted respirator mask, then walking through the supermarket you can still catch covid, the masks stop you spreading it mainly.

@Belladonna12

Ok, but then if you do catch it, you end up in the ICU taking up a hospital bed (maybe from cancer patients as well as other covid patients) in an already overwhelmed NHS because you thought you knew better. Everyone offered the vaccine has a moral obligation to take it to increase herd immunity and reduce pressure on hospitals.

Alternatively, you might not catch it and the fact that you haven't been vaccinated may mean that someone who is extremely clinically vulnerable gets vaccinated and doesn't need hospitalisation. The point is there aren't enough vaccines at the moment. If one clinically vulnerable person doesn't have it another clinically vulnerable person will get it so there will not be an increase in hospitalisations as a result.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I think part of the reason the pandemic is so out of control is precisely because people are taking individual decisions like this without thinking about the effects of lots of people cumulatively doing the same thing (think driving miles to get to crowded beauty spots). If someone is clinically vulnerable they will be high up on the list and the OPs choice is neither here nor there on impact on that person... only on themselves and the impact on everyone of someone in their 70s potentially getting covid. Never mind statistics of people refusing the vaccine having an impact on other people's decision and being twisted later when noone knows the attempt at 'nobility' behind the decision...I just don;t understand it. It's not noble to refuse it. It actually makes a me bit annoyed that they are going to inadvertently prolong this pandemic and the sacrifices so many are making. OP and her husband cannot control whether or not they get Covid, just reduce the risk. it is foolish to think otherwise (and I know some dead people from Covid who would agree)

@AnneOfQueenSables

Morals are complicated. I don't think this is a situation where you can claim moral superiority - whether you're choosing to take the vaccine or not. Yy it could be argued there is a moral imperative to participate in mass vaccination but it could also be argued that it is morally questionable to attempt to pressure someone into taking a vaccine at a time when they don't wish to take it. I know social media loves to put people into two sides and claim one of them is right and the other wrong but it's not a helpful or ethically sound approach.

This is a good summary of the complexity of the moral issues.

[quote RainMoon]@FLOrenze he needs to understand that unless he is wearing a fully fitted respirator mask, then walking through the supermarket you can still catch covid, the masks stop you spreading it mainly.[/quote]
This. My partner's father was also extremely careful and only went out to go to the supermarket once every 2 weeks. He is now dead from Covid.

@AnneOfQueenSables

Morals are complicated. I don't think this is a situation where you can claim moral superiority - whether you're choosing to take the vaccine or not. Yy it could be argued there is a moral imperative to participate in mass vaccination but it could also be argued that it is morally questionable to attempt to pressure someone into taking a vaccine at a time when they don't wish to take it. I know social media loves to put people into two sides and claim one of them is right and the other wrong but it's not a helpful or ethically sound approach.

Except that in this situation he is supposedly 'not wishing to take the vaccine' because he believes it will help others. Therefore, it is not really pressuring him into something he doesnt want to do but arguing that he is ill-informed and that not taking the vaccine will actually have a more harmful effect on others, counter to what he is trying to achieve... which is why the moral imperative should be for him to take it. to reduce suffering to others. That's what being a member of society is

@Belladonna12

Perhaps "the next person on the waiting list" can't get to the vaccination centre in the time allowed, especially since they're in town "hubs" rather than their usual local GP surgery. Perhaps the admin person doesn't have the time to phone several people "next on the waiting list" to try to find someone able to get there at short notice.

I wasn't assuming an admin person would be phoning people up and getting them to come in . Unless the person who doesn't turn up is the last person on the list that day, the next person on the waiting list will already be at the vaccination centre. When I go for a flu vaccination there are always loads of people there waiting.

But someone is the last of the day... there would still be one vaccine left over at the end of the day....logic?

@Onjnmoeiejducwoapy

Personally I think anyone who refuses has essentially opted out of society

Sorry I know I've posted a lot on this thread but I'm imploring anyone who is offered a vaccine to please take it. Not just for them, but for the sake of others and all of us!

I feel like OP's husband's rationale here is a bit like a small child offering to wash the dishes to be 'helpful' . Of course they can. It's sweet and well intentioned. but you also know its just going to create more work for the parent when they go back and have to re-wash everything. This isn't the time to make sweet but pointless gestures. Just get vaccinated and move on.

Someone lower down the chain is technically less of a risk than he is, on paper. Of course, individually they may not be, but he has no way of knowing that.
Getting the majority of over 65s vaccinated is going to make a huge difference in the short term.

@Hoppinggreen

I’m assuming your DH isn’t a highly qualified and experienced medical professional
If not then he should take the advice of those who are and have the vaccine

Are you for real? So if you are not an 'experienced medical professional' you should not be allowed to decide over your own body?

Except that in this situation he is supposedly 'not wishing to take the vaccine' because he believes it will help others. Therefore, it is not really pressuring him into something he doesnt want to do but arguing that he is ill-informed and that not taking the vaccine will actually have a more harmful effect on others, counter to what he is trying to achieve... which is why the moral imperative should be for him to take it. to reduce suffering to others. That's what being a member of society is

It doesn't matter why he doesn't want to take it. It may simply be fear that he's finding a justification for.

But unless you want to live in a country where the state can impose medical treatment on citizens against their will, then citizens have the right to choose.

As long as there are sufficient people in the country who take up the vaccine, and normally you need around 60% of the population (altho it depends on the R rate), then we will achieve herd immunity via vaccination.

I don’t think it matters how careful you are you can still get COVID.
My sil works in an extremely good care home. Ran by a charity so no corners are cut to maximise profits.
They had all the PPE they needed. Staff were bought in via their own mini bus so not to use public transport and the whole home was locked down. Still she and other members of staff got infected along with residents. She although previously was very heathy and not in an at risk group was very sick, 2 weeks in bed not able to do anything, lost a lot of weight and still months on feels exhausted just doing simple tasks.
She also infected my brother which his existing Heath problems were though would be sure to die if infected. He was asymmetric even though he was only 6 months from major cancer surgery and 3 month hospitalisation.

This is my first baby and I'm due in 18 days, eeek! I had requested a home birth and everything was scheduled but they found my iron levels and platelets to be low which I have been placed on iron tablets for! I don't see the midwifes until Wednesday where I will be 37+5 and if they do my bloods again I'll still not be much closer to getting a home birth as my pool has been delayed incase I get told no. I'm beginning to think things are creeping a little too close for comfort and was beginning to wonder about an elective c-section. Could I have people's thoughts please? Thanks x