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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Opinions you have that aren't popular on mumsnet(2)

999 replies

Lockdowner35 · 03/01/2021 15:58

As the last thread reached 1000 posts

I will start

Jo Swinson would have do a better job than Boris on Coronavirus

OP posts:
FreshFancyFrogglette · 10/01/2021 22:23

Transphobia is rife here :o. I don't like it at all. Some of the things being said are bloody disgusting. I'll be glad in 50yrs, on reflection, that I was on the right side of progress on this one.

Just out of curiosity Orlania do u think post op trans women shouldnt be allowed in female bathrooms? Where the f should they go then?!

I'll be glad when we recognise gender for the social construct that it is. You know that accepting the notion of an inherent gender to accompany sex is counter intuitive to a feminist argument? Orlania?

FreshFancyFrogglette · 10/01/2021 22:24

Omg that wasn't meant to be a smiley!! facepalm was meant to be a shocked face!!

whittystitties · 10/01/2021 22:32

That the schools should never have closed

Orlania · 10/01/2021 22:38

Just out of curiosity Orlania do u think post op trans women shouldnt be allowed in female bathrooms? Where the f should they go then?!

Depends what you mean by post op. What do you think it means? As the vast majority of transwomen keep their penis. If someone has a penis then they need to use the bathroom for their biological sex.

Orlania · 10/01/2021 22:48

I'll be glad when we recognise gender for the social construct that it is
It is a social construct. It's biological sex that matters. No matter how people present.

You know that accepting the notion of an inherent gender to accompany sex is counter intuitive to a feminist argument? Orlania

My feminism stopped at second wave feminism. I don't relate to third and fourth wave feminism. And I don't care about gender identity. It's meaningless as far as I'm concerned. I care about the rights and safety of biological women, no matter how they present.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 10/01/2021 22:50

I mean when they have had gender reassignment surgery. Usually to remove their male sex organ, and have it replaced with a vulva. "the cast majority of trans women keep their penis", this is completely news to me.. Do you have evidence for this? I thought most gender reassignment surgeries included replacement of the penis with a vagina?!

FreshFancyFrogglette · 10/01/2021 22:51

Orlania, at the risk of sounding patronising, are u sure u are not getting confused between transgenders and transsexuals?

FreshFancyFrogglette · 10/01/2021 23:02

I fullyagree that transvestites should perhaps use the male bathroom (although ensuring that bathrooms were genuinely safe spaces should be paramount!). However, post op trans women are both biologically and spiritually female, therefore I can't see any argument for them using any other bathroom apart from the female one!

Orlania · 10/01/2021 23:26

Orlania, at the risk of sounding patronising, are u sure u are not getting confused between transgenders and transsexuals?

🤣 I know the difference between the two. Do not worry yourself.

However, post op trans women are both biologically and spiritually female, therefore I can't see any argument for them using any other bathroom apart from the female one!

Transwomen are biological males. They always will be. It's not possible to change sex. How on earth do you be a spiritual female. Being a female is about biological sex, not spiritual feelings. Having said that, for those with gender dysphoria who have removed their penis, I have more support for those individuals.

zeitgeista · 10/01/2021 23:48

ahh, so they have to earn your support..

i see.

Orlania · 10/01/2021 23:48

the vast majority of trans women keep their penis", this is completely news to me

Google is your friend. Alternatively pop on to the feminist thread and have a browse through the resources there. Or ask the question. Sorry, I would like to be more helpful but I need to go to bed, heavy day at work looming tomorrow.

Orlania · 10/01/2021 23:49

ahh, so they have to earn your support..

Yawn.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/01/2021 00:07

The proportion of MTF trans people who get genital surgery is probably less than 5%.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/01/2021 00:09

I'll be glad when we recognise gender for the social construct that it is.

Yes, so will all gender critical women. The clue is in the name.

CounsellorTroi · 11/01/2021 00:27

Depends what you mean by post op. What do you think it means? As the vast majority of transwomen keep their penis. If someone has a penis then they need to use the bathroom for their biological sex.

I imagine some of them keep their penis to have children. Just like some transmen keep their uteruses. Should we expect them to give up the ability to have children in order to be recognised as proper transwomen/men?

Orlania · 11/01/2021 00:45

Should we expect them to give up the ability to have children in order to be recognised as proper transwomen/men

No of course not. I'm happy to recognise people as trans. But, if biological males still have a penis then they cannot expect to use women's spaces. It's a choice they need to weigh up isn't it. Anyway, this is not the thread to be discussing these things. If you wish to discuss it further then feel free to come over to feminism to do so. I will not be responding to any more discussion about transgender ideology on this thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/01/2021 01:31

I don't recognise any male as a woman, do no issues for me.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 11/01/2021 02:04

@Orlania

I'll be glad when we recognise gender for the social construct that it is It is a social construct. It's biological sex that matters. No matter how people present.

You know that accepting the notion of an inherent gender to accompany sex is counter intuitive to a feminist argument? Orlania

My feminism stopped at second wave feminism. I don't relate to third and fourth wave feminism. And I don't care about gender identity. It's meaningless as far as I'm concerned. I care about the rights and safety of biological women, no matter how they present.

Exactly.

Gender is just a fancy word for personality. And it's nothing short of insulting to suggest that a person who's had all the privileges of being male can say "I have a female personality because ". So regressive and I'm at a total loss as to why people can't see it.

@FreshFancyFrogglette to you, what is a woman?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 11/01/2021 02:08

@FreshFancyFrogglette

I mean when they have had gender reassignment surgery. Usually to remove their male sex organ, and have it replaced with a vulva. "the cast majority of trans women keep their penis", this is completely news to me.. Do you have evidence for this? I thought most gender reassignment surgeries included replacement of the penis with a vagina?!
Physically impossible to replace a penis with a vagina. It's inverted flesh with a hole. Sex reassignment surgery is uncommon amongst trans people - about 20% seek it www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Monitoring-Gender-Nonconformity.pdf

And TBH I don't blame those who don't - it's a very risky surgery, it can result in the loss of sexual pleasure and it can go wrong in many ways.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 11/01/2021 02:10

@zeitgeista

ahh, so they have to earn your support..

i see.

Well, yes, if men want to appropriate women I'd say it's more than suitable they earn our support.

Would you not agree that white people barging their way in to hard fought for spaces for POC should earn the support - or can they just go "we are one of you know, accept us or you're a bigot"?

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 11/01/2021 02:11

@CounsellorTroi

Depends what you mean by post op. What do you think it means? As the vast majority of transwomen keep their penis. If someone has a penis then they need to use the bathroom for their biological sex.

I imagine some of them keep their penis to have children. Just like some transmen keep their uteruses. Should we expect them to give up the ability to have children in order to be recognised as proper transwomen/men?

I'm more than happy to recognise people as trans. But I won't recognise people with penises, wether they're intact or inverted, as women on their say so
UrsulaVdL · 11/01/2021 02:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 11/01/2021 10:49

Because I dont subscribe to the current belief system regarding biological sex. More and more evidence suggests that sex is a spectrum, rather than an either or cookie mould. For example when considering hormones, there isn't an exact figure which indicates male or females, rather a range. When it comes to genitals it is possible to be born with niether, or both. It is definitley possible to have a penis, yet all other sex indicaters to allude to a female form. In thisway out current belief system about what makes someone male vs female is flawed, and reductionist. I don't believe in oppressing the chosen identity of an individual in order to ensure a safe space for other individuals, I believe that if we have an issue with safe spaces then we need to tackle that, without encroaching on the rights of other individuals.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 11/01/2021 10:55

Another issue in regards to transphobia, is that they place too much emphasis on the penis, as if this is what causes patriarchy. It is in fact the gendered (learned) attributes of masculinity that cause the violence associated with patriarchy, not the penis itself, or the physical form. We've already established, and agreed that gender is a learnt behaviour, so if this individual i

DedlyMedally · 11/01/2021 11:02

@FreshFancyFrogglette

Another issue in regards to transphobia, is that they place too much emphasis on the penis, as if this is what causes patriarchy. It is in fact the gendered (learned) attributes of masculinity that cause the violence associated with patriarchy, not the penis itself, or the physical form. We've already established, and agreed that gender is a learnt behaviour, so if this individual i
It is in fact the gendered (learned) attributes of masculinity that cause the violence associated with patriarchy, not the penis itself, or the physical form.

That's an interesting theory.
Why do you think patriarchy is so pervasive amongst human cultures?
Why did the vast majority "teach" men to be relatively more violent?