“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

Considering many not all, refuse to work after the kids start school....I don't think they do

But the childcare issue doesn't stop then does it? It becomes a bit cheaper in terms of hours but more complicated.

From observation the biggest barrier to women getting back to more work once the kids were at school was that they still retained all the responsibility for both children and wifework. This limited the jobs they could take. Those where the fathers compromised their own jobs to share that load were few and far between.

So they end up trying to find patchwork jobs "which mostly fit" and which bring in enough to cover the wraparound care and holiday cover.

[quote HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee]**@AccidentallyOnSanta* Was it me said what?*I haven’t discussed jobs fitting round school hours.at all
Given I don’t have a job that fits around school I’m unlikely to say that
As you were[/quote]
I sincerely apologise. Late last night someone else replied to you with such a comment. My brain got muddled.

While I agree that many more men could sort out childcare/flexitime if they really wanted, I also think some people are being overly dismissive re out of hours childcare. I have friends who are doctors and the only way they’ve managed to complete their training was with an au pair. That is not something everyone would want not afford if they didn’t have a big enough house for a spare room. Similarly, last minute overnight childcare has to be with someone v trusted. It’s not run of the mill nursery. Finding a nursery is easy. Finding cover from 6-9pm or overnight less so.

I would say in most cases the choices also are mostly made by women

As others have said - choices are not made in a vacuum. Women don't unlaterally "get themselves pregnant" to use a lovely old misogynist phrase. Those choices are made in a societal context structured to prioritise and suit men.

Including settling for less than ideal partners and then playing the put-upon martyr

Or marrying someone who said all the right things and failed to step up when the time came (much commoner frankly).

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee - unlike your mighty and arrogant eminence...blah blah
⬆️ lol, that’s a cracker. Feel free to address me as such. That’s my name change sorted HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffeeMightyAndArrogantEminence
Love it💖

@jillypill

Nope. It’s just the money for H. He likes the money and the things it buys. He doesn’t want less.

I like the money too, the choices it brings. Even if DH was making 20k a month (he doesn't) I still don't see my contribution as not needed.

That was more to the point that it’s more than money for men whereas it’s just money for women (paraphrasing badly). It isn’t in our case. We just work for the cash. H liked to travel and be in the office, but increasingly the fun has worn off.

It’s interesting at what point is the earning is not needed? For us it’s when it’s so low as to not compensate for the children going to childcare (something neither of us want at the moment), us being more knackered, when it affects holidays and leisure etc. £100 a week is not as valuable as the other non monetary things. But £1000 might be.

“ Or marrying someone who said all the right things and failed to step up when the time came (much commoner frankly).”

Totally agree with this.

Blaming women for this situation is totally misplaced. Men have been conditioned to expect to have it all in a way that women have not.

Blaming women for this situation is totally misplaced. Men have been conditioned to expect to have it all in a way that women have not

I agree with this, but it cannot go without comment when men and women perpetuate this discriminatory behaviour

And it’s reinforced when women step down or stop working to facilitate men. Men on this thread who flatly refuse to accommodate change upon becoming a parent. So the woman has to change

I think this is the case for most people looking for childcare after mat leave isn’t it?

?

I had to look whilst pregnant same as HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee - unlike your mighty and arrogant eminence...blah blah ⬆️ lol, that’s a cracker. Feel free to address me as such. That’s my name change sorted HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffeeMightyAndArrogantEminence Love it💖

- I dare you to change it permanently.

But the only alternative then is that the children suffer. Men know that women won’t allow that to happen so they carry on. The problematic behaviour is the men’s.

What is the actual point of this thread? Unless there is a nationwide survey, examining correlations between having a SAHW and some kind of index for career progression / salaries within different industries, you might as well ask how long is a piece of string. All you will get is anecdotes.

However, what I will say is this. Come to an area such as Chelsea, Kensington etc where a far higher than average proportion of men will be multi-millionaires. Here you will find a far higher proportion of SAHWs. It’s no coincidence.

Come to an area such as where I live now (Barnes) which has a similar-ish demographic, if less wealthy. I would say 80% of mums at the prep mine attended until the age of 11 were SAH. Again, no coincidence.

When people talk about “working hours” on here it does make me laugh a bit because many of these men have no concept of cut off between work and home life. They live and breathe work - especially ones who are entrepreneurs or who are maybe involved in multifarious roles at any one time. Eg. my DH never had “a job” as such. He ran two main companies, various spin off companies and was a non-exec director for maybe about six other things at any one time; plus maintaining a property portfolio; a stock market portfolio and an options trading account, City Index and god knows what else. It was always changing and there was no set pattern. Yes he could have done the money-making side of things as a single man, sure. But not do all that and bring up 4 kids as well. I guess he could have hired 24/7 nannies but that sort of lifestyle never appealed and we wouldn’t have had children in those circumstances. So yes, I can only speak for us obviously, but I would say I facilitated his work life and he facilitated my SAH life - which was the whole point because we both benefitted overall and so did the kids. In my case, it was not a financial risk though. None of the SAHWs I can think of are really at financial risk because of the level of assets they have built up over the years. Also, life changes and many of the DH’s retire by 45/50 after they sell a company or similar and then they invest the money in a way that provides income and do bits on the side, so it isn’t always clear who is actually working / facilitating anyway in many cases. As the kids get older, the SAWs role changes obviously and they have more time for themselves, as a general rule. But the DHs also carve out more time for whatever activities they get into - for instance, DH is planning to go to Antarctica as soon as possible and he does loads of things like this which I don’t mind at all because I think I have a pretty good deal too, in a way that suits me. So, it’s all shifting sands as a family evolves.

What I do know is that these threads never end well. The decision of whether to work or stay at home is invariably one people are defensive of and tend to get very testy about. It's also one of those strange conversations where stating you've made a different decision to someone else's is frequently taken as a personal affront. There are several demonstrations of this point upthread.

It's none of my business how others decide on the division of labour in their households. They don't need my approval any more than I need theirs. Likewise, if they want to complain about the consequences of their choices no one is forcing me to listen.

No one needs validation of their lifestyle choices from complete stranger on the internet.

Sorry that was in response to Heels last comment

@Uhohmummy

“ Or marrying someone who said all the right things and failed to step up when the time came (much commoner frankly).”

Totally agree with this.

Blaming women for this situation is totally misplaced. Men have been conditioned to expect to have it all in a way that women have not.

I also agree with this. I know few women who’ve given up work altogether, but I know a few whose careers have suffered because most of the responsibility for the children has fallen to them. And if you’re married to someone who won’t step up, you can’t actually make them: all you can do is divorce them (and end up with all the responsibility, less money and a Disney dad swanning in once a fortnight if he bothers with the kids at all). Once the children are here a lot of women find they’re really stuck.

@Walkaround I love a mn argument. The pithy put downs, don’t get that anywhere else

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

Blaming women for this situation is totally misplaced. Men have been conditioned to expect to have it all in a way that women have not

I agree with this, but it cannot go without comment when men and women perpetuate this discriminatory behaviour

And it’s reinforced when women step down or stop working to facilitate men. Men on this thread who flatly refuse to accommodate change upon becoming a parent. So the woman has to change

The problem is, children get caught in the crossfire. Women more usually step down because the children have to be accommodated and the woman usually blinks first. When it comes to setting an example to your children, I don’t think not blinking first is always the best example to set. Even HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffeeMightyandArrogantEminence didn’t expect some silly little man to source her childcare for her.

@Uhohmummy no it’s not a fatalistic one choice only scenario

The problematic behaviour is the men ⬅️NO it’s men and the women who facilitate privilege and entitlement to favour the man

It’s interesting at what point is the earning is not needed?

Yes, I don't know what that really is for me.

Personally I am more tired on the days I have the kids, spreadsheets are a doddle in comparison! My dc would do activities after school anyway eg football, coding (obvs not on now) but that helps as I'm home for 4.15.

I think the social shift we need isn’t a change in women’s behaviour (although fewer women would get shafted if more girls were advised to expect to be a breadwinner): we need a greater expectation on men to shoulder their domestic responsibilities. As things are, there are damn-all consequence for not stepping up at home, and almost none for not paying for or taking any responsibility for children once they are here. If that meant more men got vasectomies at an early age, that might not be a bad thing...

The problematic behaviour is the men’s.

Yes but are they going to change it?

No DH wouldn't be where he is now if I hadn't facilitated him. And neither would the DC or I. Lovely house, home in France, DC went to fabulous schools and as a family we want for nothing. We worked as a team.

It’s really not about blinking or brinksmanship. Adults can and should comprise. Many May not want to, may not like it but it’s what adults do as parents

The problematic behaviour is the men’s.
Yes but are they going to change it?

Only if they are with a woman who isn’t willing to step down or step back
For as long as women give in and acquiesce there will be men who impose knowing they’ll get their way

I have sacrificed my career because of having children. I was overlooked for projects when I announced my pregnancy and have been made redundant during my maternity leave. There is no option for part time in my industry, well there is but more often than not they employ someone like my former self, without children. Because of this my career will now stagnate and there will be no further career progression. I will continue to work but have accepted that now I have child I will no longer be seen as reliable due to childcare. This is no fault of my partner who has encouraged me to try and get back into my field but employers who continue to discriminate against women with children. Working mothers are no longer a worthwhile investment.