“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

Facilitated men posts

Part 1- www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen
Part 2 - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3088346-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-Part-2

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

As a child or adolescent If your mum doesn’t work how can she model employment or authentically discuss work? That then falls to other working women. The teachers,the TA, other women in the workplace. If there is no maternal experience of working and having children there is limited scope to discuss experience.

Speaking of TA's was it that you said again about women and their jobs that fit around school hours?

I did work for 20 years before I had children. I can authentically talk about work and employment. Especially as I often worked in HR depts.

What about people who work from home not out in the workplace. I think this will increase now and will blur the lines between work and home more than the presentee system we have had previously. I think by the time my kids are working age work will be much more flexible and fluid with home life.

And something else I remember about growing up with two parents working full time is that they were both always knackered. Weekends were always boring because they were too tired to do anything and wanted to ‘rest’. My mum was especially run ragged, she moaned constantly about her job and how tired she was. It was crap. She had a nervous breakdown in the end.

It’s never just money when it’s men...It’s a much more than that

Nope. It’s just the money for H. He likes the money and the things it buys. He doesn’t want less.

Where would he magic up that kind of last-minute, paid-for childcare?
Like everyone else does. You use a familiar nannny, live in child care
You plan your childcare based on the demands of the job. If you know it’s likely one of you will travel at short notice you adequately plan for that

No one is suggesting you commander a stranger, some miscreant you found on the street. Childcare is highly regulated, there are checks and balances, word of mouth etc. If You need childcare you plan it

I had my nursery place booked when I was 3mth pg. because I knew I needed it.

Moreover, a career is not necessarily a virtue in and of itself, nor is the absence of one a moral deficit. There are many desirable traits that I would want my son and daughter to emulate which don’t relate to how money they earn (/earn for other people)

In principle I agree however for some women working gives them a level of independence that is hard to get if not working. One if my friends is going through a bitter divorce & he is behaving like an utter selfish shit, the fact she has a job has massively helped her.

Sacrificing your career so a partner can excel doesn’t necessarily mean being a SAHP. I have definitely sacrificed mine and know plenty of others who have too - but generally that means going part time, condensing hours or the more insidious missing out on career progression due to having family responsibilities and therefore being seen as less dedicated.

@AccidentallyOnSanta Was it me said what?I haven’t discussed jobs fitting round school hours.at all
Given I don’t have a job that fits around school I’m unlikely to say that
As you were

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee - oh yes, childcare planning. Like having insurance for your central heating, only to be told there’s a lot of demand at the moment, so you have to wait until next week to get the boiler fixed, even though you’re cold now .

@Tellmetruth4, to answer your question about jobs requiring a trip at short notice...

Yes both me and DH were engineers. He. Was at a customer every week. I was working in quality in the automotive industry. When a customer had an issue it could mean dropping everything and taking the. First flight. Because stopping the assembly line of a car manufacturer just isn’t possible....

I wouldn’t have called either my or Dh job high flying. Just some jobs require travel

I also agree there’s a general view on Mumsnet that if you have a demanding job you also have access to excellent childcare on demand. Sadly this isn’t just true. Mary Poppins does not exist, and believe me I’ve tried to find her.
Also live in childcare requires having a spare bedroom at least. In London, where most of these highly demanding jobs are based, that is luxury reserved for the very rich only.

Nope. It’s just the money for H. He likes the money and the things it buys. He doesn’t want less.

I like the money too, the choices it brings. Even if DH was making 20k a month (he doesn't) I still don't see my contribution as not needed.

I had my nursery place booked when I was 3mth pg. because I knew I needed it.

I was on my childminders waiting list then, she was fantastic.

My childcare and boiler are fortunately unrelated.nor do I mix them up
I don’t need to plan for the boiler being on its own

The principle is the same though - just because there’s a need and means to pay for it, doesn’t mean that the urgently needed assistance is there.

I know couples where the woman certainly has been equally vital to the couple’s success, and others where, yes, quite frankly a decent housekeeper/nanny could have essentially done the role, and the woman has thoroughly enjoyed kicking back with the kids. But how could a court decide which couples are which? I do raise an eyebrow when a man is clearly truly exceptional at what he does, and the woman claims half the credit. But how do you make it fair?

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

As a child or adolescent If your mum doesn’t work how can she model employment or authentically discuss work? That then falls to other working women. The teachers,the TA, other women in the workplace. If there is no maternal experience of working and having children there is limited scope to discuss experience.

It’s a reasonable point, but to that I would say:

• Many mothers have worked in the past, even if they’ve since stopped. Contrary to what many think, they don’t suddenly develop amnesia around their former professional identity and forgot everything they’ve ever learnt. They will have something to contribute.

• The workplace changes over the decades, such that your own experiences of navigating it may not even be that relevant to what a younger generation is going through.

• It’s not your job as a parent to model every conceivable (positive) action to your child. If I’ve only ever experienced abusive unhappy relationships, I might not have much to offer to my children on how to build trusting ties. That’s OK. You don’t have to breasted just to model it your daughter, especially if it’s something you really don’t want to do. Your job as a parent (imo) is to teach them to think independently, and to equip them with the cognitive tools they need to get the answers they’re looking for.

If You need childcare you plan it.
I had my nursery place booked when I was 3mth pg. because I knew I needed it

Well yes, quite. Which is why this is totally contrary to the original point you were making about how a father needing to travel abroad last minute should sort out his own emergency childcare.

I use a nursery and a childminder. I know for a fact that if ‘solvent, capable’ DH tried to tap them for emergency childcare at the last minute, they would not be able to accommodate him

Organising a nursery is hardy sorting extended childcare to faciltate unpredictable long hours. Thats just normal working day stuff.

Also, the woman’s support can be pretty invisible. I know a couple where he gives it all the chat, and it’s only when I got to know them well, that I realised he bounced all his ideas off her, she cane up with lots of ideas and solutions and he absolutely valued her opinions. You’d never know it in passing, but she’s been key to his (fairly massive) success.

I had my nursery place booked when I was 3mth pg. because I knew I needed it.

I was on my childminders waiting list then, she was fantastic.

I think this is the case for most people looking for childcare after mat leave isn’t it?

Waferbiscuit
They are great threads!

I always find the facilitated men issue a chicken and egg scenario because if you suggest that women don't tolerate the home burdens being placed on them you get accused of internalised misogyny, but then the world isn't going to magically change whilst we (women as a class) accept that it just has to be that way, it simply makes sense for us to give up our careers, it just happened to be best for us to have 10 years fewer pension contributions. Change has to come from somewhere and it's unlikely to come from those who benefit from playing the 'oooh my big important job' card.

It reminds me of threads where the dad is being an overgrown manchild and the mum is busy juggling full time work, all the home responsibilities and all the mental load. If you say that we (as a class) should take a stand and stop picking manchildren's pants up whilst they sit on their games console or go to the pub, then you get wrongly accused of blaming women for the selectively feckless men. But the selectively feckless men aren't going to wake up one morning and decide they'd rather pull their weight at home if they know that someone else will do it all for them.

It's not like the facilitated men are going to wake up one morning and decide they want to pull their weight.

The whole topic is interesting.

Yes I agree. As the lone breadwinner (female) I always had ambition and drive and I would have achieved what I have achieved regardless of circumstances. I got a new job recently on more money a entirely my choice as his circumstances haven't changed in terms of his responsibilities. He never had any drive or get up and go and would never have had a high flying career to sacrifice. He wanted to give up work I didn't want him to. It pisses me off when people say this tbh

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee - unlike your mighty and arrogant eminence, I know most full time working parents have a very stressful time sorting out unexpected childcare, because they are generally pretty useless at collecting their children from school when they have vomited, and at coping generally in a pandemic. Only a vanishingly tiny minority of people can afford a full time, live in nanny to cater for their every childcare need at the shortest notice. Everyone else has to muddle through, occasionally extremely ineffectually and unhappily, because they know that what they have managed to source is inadequate.