To ask about JK Rowling - can someone tell me what happened?

[christmaspigeon]

Just that really. I like her. I like how she gives so much for charity and how she put Trump in his place, but I know people's views on her have changed. Something to do with trans comments?? Can someone explain (in really simple language!) what happened? Thank you!

Still not going to be irtrationally scared of trans people just like I'm not going to be irrationally scared of men.

I'm not 'irrationally scared of men'. I am realistic about men, that males are the main perpetrators of sex/violent attacks against women. I am realistic that absolutely no woman in this world has ever gone through life without facing at least one instance of the above from men. That men do not come with 'dangerous' labels on them, therefore any single one of them given the opportunity or means could harm a vulnerable woman. I will fight against society giving males an open goal to be allowed around women in spaces where they simply shouldn't be. Wearing a dress or claiming to have 'ladybrain' doesn't make a male born person any less of a possible threat. They have still been raised with male privilege, and are part of the oppressed group rather than the oppressed.

Part of the oppressive group that should say.

Still not going to be irtrationally scared of trans people just like I'm not going to be irrationally scared of men.

Who is 'irrationally scared of men'?

Women are always told to curtail their behaviour so that they can 'keep safe': don't walk home alone, don't walk anywhere alone at night, don't get a cab on your own, don't get drunk, don't wear a short skirt etc - there are perverts everywhere out there, you need to keep yourself safe blah blah blah.

However, the second women suggest something that is proven to offer some safeguarding but involves some males not being able to do what they want (ie. Certain single sex spaces) then suddenly it's all 'oh you are so irrational (as you put it), I doubt anyone is going to bother raping you, if they want to they will do it anyway so don't even bother trying to keep yourself safe'.

Funny that isn't it. That women who are suggesting their own safeguards rather than ones imposed on them are 'irrational'.

@Quaagars

If you are walking alone late at night, do you avoid certain areas? Maybe have your keys at the ready? Would you avoid getting very drunk in certain situations? Do you avoid being alone in public in certain situations? Maybe even just subconsciously? Would you be perfectly happy sharing a public toilet, just you and one bloke you didn't know? You wouldnt feel any discomfort at all in that situation?

Well, that answered my question
I'll take it you think it should be a yes then.
Still not going to be irtrationally scared of trans people just like I'm not going to be irrationally scared of men.

So, by that logic, and taking trans out of the equation entirely, do you think everything should be unisex? After all, what reason is there to segregate, if women have no valid reason to want privacy and protection from men in any situation? Bit hard on the poor old men and women who just want to be pals across the divide and enjoy a nice gossip while getting changed for swimming, eh?

@TheBuffster

So according to your logic rape victims should suck it up as women have no right to be wary of men. Unbelievable.

Wow - talk about putting words in my mouth, that is some epic twisting, quite impressive! How do you get from what I wrote rape victims should suck it up?! That is one huge leap, and just for clarity, I absolutely do not think they should suck it up, of course I don't so don't put words in my mouth with your twist on it .please

I do feel it's an absolute waste of time trying to convince people who think rape victims should have the right to a female examiner taken away. Who think women in prisons and refuges should share with men.
But these threads aren't for them. They're for lurkers who've heard people blindly screaming about trans rights and wonder what it's all about. If JK hadn't written her essay I would still be one of the #transwomenarewomen crowd. Thank god for her consistency and intelligence to look beyond a soundbite.

But that is the logical conclusion of what you said. It's not twisting your words.

She didn't actually stand for women's right she stood for the removal of trans rights.

There isn't and never was any "right" to override women's and girls' established rights to privacy and dignity. But like many male people, MTF trans people sometimes don't like being told no.

Then what should rape victims do when a male person enters their space. It's not twisting your words it's following the. To their logical conclusion.

"Removing the rights"? What rights are these? Self-id was never law.

Yes, what trans rights are being 'removed'?

Trans people want the right to legally falsify their birth certificate so that it states something which is objectively untrue, simply with the filling in of a form. They actually already have the right to do this, to falsify that legal document, it's just that at the moment they have to go through due process to do it. So they already have more rights than any other group in that respect.

I am realistic that absolutely no woman in this world has ever gone through life without facing at least one instance of the above from men

Missed what you mean by facing at least one instance of the above?
Would be interested to know

I'm sure you already know.

I do. But as this is a discussion board, I'm happy to, you know, discuss what other people think? Even if I don't agree?

But these threads aren't for them. They're for lurkers who've heard people blindly screaming about trans rights and wonder what it's all about. If JK hadn't written her essay I would still be one of the #transwomenarewomen crowd. Thank god for her consistency and intelligence to look beyond a soundbite.

Yes, precisely.

I'm not anti-trans, I'm anti giving predatory and misogynistic men an "in" to being able to access women and girls in places where sex segregation is required.

This goes far beyond taking the a piss in the ladies.

Nothing to do with transwomen, but the men who have, and will, exploit any loophole they can.

Thank you @laPufalina for posting the link: an interesting and thought provoking piece and (as would be expected) superbly well written.

So @Quaagars, like melisande99 said, do you believe that all facilities should just be mixed sex then, if any kind of waryness of males is 'irrational'? Just have all males and females changing together, examining each other alone and without chaperones, together in prisons?

I know I won't get an answer to this question by the way, it's more for the lurkers

And for the record, being wary of strange men when you are vulnerable or alone isn't in any way irrational for women and girls.

The way I perceived it was that she was frustrated a company used “people” instead of “women” when referring to menstuating. So they said “when people menstruate” and she corrected it to “women” But some people identify as male but have not started hormone treatment/the physical transition to a male yet but may not appreciate being grouped into having female pronouns which is why many were annoyed about it. Of course people will all of snowflake behaviour but I just think if you can’t do something as small as respect people’s wishes to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns, YOU are the snowflake!!

It's not a small thing to erase the female experience. I think you misunderstand the point she was making. And no, people who get upset when their luxury beliefs aren't validated by other people with their own beliefs and opinions are definitely the snowflakes.

@Quaagars

I am realistic that absolutely no woman in this world has ever gone through life without facing at least one instance of the above from men

Missed what you mean by facing at least one instance of the above?
Would be interested to know

@Quaagars

No woman has ever gone through life without facing sexual harrasment or abuse from men, many have also faced general violence from men as well.

@Bambam2019

The way I perceived it was that she was frustrated a company used “people” instead of “women” when referring to menstuating. So they said “when people menstruate” and she corrected it to “women” But some people identify as male but have not started hormone treatment/the physical transition to a male yet but may not appreciate being grouped into having female pronouns which is why many were annoyed about it. Of course people will all of snowflake behaviour but I just think if you can’t do something as small as respect people’s wishes to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns, YOU are the snowflake!!

What have pronouns got do with knowing and stating that there is a distinct class of human who menstruates and that that class is called 'women'?

How can you defend the rights of a group when you aren't even allowed to name and define that group?

How about those that are barred from mixing with men due to religion. What happens to them?

I can tell you what will happen, from the Jewish perspective. My Orthodox friends just won't go out. That's what will happen. Wonderful, community-minded women with so much to offer, stuck at home.

So progressive.

Of course people will all of snowflake behaviour but I just think if you can’t do something as small as respect people’s wishes to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns, YOU are the snowflake!!

See, I actually used to think like this. Thought it was just a matter of politeness and common courtesy. That has changed thanks to a lot of deep thinking, reading and of course JKR and lots of other wise women who have helped me see the light.

The problem with the pronoun thing is you are asking me to say something which I believe in my heart of hearts to be untrue. And that's pretty soul destroying long term. Language is important.

@PussyMalanga

How about those that are barred from mixing with men due to religion. What happens to them?

I can tell you what will happen, from the Jewish perspective. My Orthodox friends just won't go out. That's what will happen. Wonderful, community-minded women with so much to offer, stuck at home.

So progressive.

I am finding it very significant that Labour MPs are ignoring this aspect. Surely they must have been told about the effect on Orthodox Jewish women by now.

Well I think one of the worries of replacing the word woman with menstruaters etc. Is that people who don't have a good grasp of English might miss vital medical checks like cervical screening. Women is more universally understood. If you use people you're going to clog the system with mistaken males who don't need checks.
Of course I suppose you think dying of ovarian cancer is a very snowflaky way to die.