To ask about JK Rowling - can someone tell me what happened?

[christmaspigeon]

Just that really. I like her. I like how she gives so much for charity and how she put Trump in his place, but I know people's views on her have changed. Something to do with trans comments?? Can someone explain (in really simple language!) what happened? Thank you!

Like OP , I'm sure you already know.

Does she? Where's your proof of that? Is it like your 'proof' that JKR is transphobic?

@Bambam2019

The way I perceived it was that she was frustrated a company used “people” instead of “women” when referring to menstuating. So they said “when people menstruate” and she corrected it to “women” But some people identify as male but have not started hormone treatment/the physical transition to a male yet but may not appreciate being grouped into having female pronouns which is why many were annoyed about it. Of course people will all of snowflake behaviour but I just think if you can’t do something as small as respect people’s wishes to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns, YOU are the snowflake!!

@Bambam2019

The word 'woman'when talking about menstruation doesn't refer to gender ideology though. It refers to biological function. Women/females menstruate. You can identify as whatever you want, but you cannot erase your own biology or that or other women just because you don't appreciate being born biologically female. Only biological females menstruate.

Do you believe that it's ok to appropriate words based on feelings in one's head? Do you think it's ok that Rachel Dolezal calledd herself black when she was born white? What is the difference in level of offensivness?

Of course people will all of snowflake behaviour but I just think if you can’t do something as small as respect people’s wishes to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns, YOU are the snowflake!!

Thing is @Bambam2019 the number of transmen is miniscule compared with the number of women. So the company - selling products to women who are menstruating - chose to erase millions of women's lived experience to save the feelings of a very tiny minority of biological females.

I think it's important to be 'inclusive' and that the way we treat minorities says something about us all.

But the solution is not to exclude and erase a majority, and a majority which has been subject to millennia of abuse, oppression, and outcasting because of the fact that they menstruate.

It's a 21st century corporate version of menstruation huts.

If they really wanted to be inclusive they could write.
"Women and others' who menstruate"
Why didn't they?
Because it highlights how wrong it sounds.

but may not appreciate being grouped into having female pronouns which is why many were annoyed about it.

The focus on social media was firmly on MTF trans people, not FTM. As always. And I don't want to be referred to as a "menstruator", thanks all the same. It's not just about them.

See, I actually used to think like this. That has changed thanks to a lot of deep thinking, reading and of course JKR and lots of other wise women who have helped me see the light.

That doesn't sound brainwashy at all

@Quaagars

See, I actually used to think like this. That has changed thanks to a lot of deep thinking, reading and of course JKR and lots of other wise women who have helped me see the light.

That doesn't sound brainwashy at all

Says the person who believes in pink and blue brains and not calling a spade a spade.

@Quaagars deep thinking sounds brainwashy? Reevaluating my prior assumptions is brainswashy?

Anyone who thinks about this issue for more than a few minutes can see the absurd illogicalities of the tra movement - I highly recommend it.

chose to erase millions of women's lived experience to save the feelings of a very tiny minority of biological females.

This is true, but again I will point out that it was less about saving the feelings of transmen and more for transwomen. Let us not forget that it was 'transwomen are women' that exploded out of the JKR fallout. Transmen were barely mentioned, because it's not about the feelings of women (including the ones who identify as men), it's about males controlling women by taking away everything we fought for in terms of owning our own anatomy.

This is the fallout of women fighting for equal rights. They couldn't bully us down by claiming our sex made us weak, that our place was not amongst men, that our biology always meant that we simply couldn't keep up outside the home. So it was flipped on it's head - if women won't stop trying to be part of a 'man's world', they would invade ours. If we won't accept our biology gives us ladybrains, they tell us our 'gender' does. We can't win.

That doesn't sound brainwashy at all

@Quaagars, thats because its not. I used to be a full on TRA until I actually listened to the other side and opened my eyes to how misogynistic gender is, how poisonous for society and women. It's also seeped in homophobia and the epitome of stereotypes being celebrated. There's also a huge amount of hypocrisy in self ID, where you (currently) are vilified if you identify as any other oppressed group, but it's 'brave' to use 'she' pronouns when you were not born a woman. Funny how no one thinks a biological woman is 'brave' just for being female, because it's bloody hard work being one in this world.

Women are always told to curtail their behaviour so that they can 'keep safe': don't walk home alone, don't walk anywhere alone at night, don't get a cab on your own, don't get drunk

Police say this all the time...irrational beggers

This is true, but again I will point out that it was less about saving the feelings of transmen and more for transwomen. Let us not forget that it was 'transwomen are women' that exploded out of the JKR fallout. Transmen were barely mentioned, because it's not about the feelings of women (including the ones who identify as men), it's about males controlling women by taking away everything we fought for in terms of owning our own anatomy.

This is very true.

JKR's 'people who menstruate' tweet was solely referring to women (and transmen, who are female).

Daniel Radcliffe's response to those tweets during the backlash was 'Transwomen are women'.

Says it all really doesn't it. At the end of the day, everyone still knows who the men are.

Says the person who believes in pink and blue brains and not calling a spade a spade.

Well, quite.

Daniel Radcliffe's response to those tweets during the backlash was 'Transwomen are women'.

DR missed the mark so badly on his statement. However, a man spoke so of course everyone fanned over how brilliant and clever he was, and ran with it. Made it all about transwomen and forgot if there was any offence to be found (and I dont believe so), it was on behalf of transmen. Whilst JKR got told to ask her husband about how wrong she was....

But some people identify as male but have not started hormone treatment/the physical transition to a male yet but may not appreciate being grouped into having female pronouns which is why many were annoyed about it.

Let's just make it absolutely clear, too. It isn't possible to change your sex. It's biological reality. They aren't male, never have been and never will be. They are female. They cannot "physically transition to a male" which is why the vast majority do not. They cannot "know they are male" any more than MTF trans people "know they are female". They don't understand the male experience first hand, only from their perception and the second hand experiences of others.

They can only know that they don't feel like what they think a woman or girl should feel like.

You can see why a whole host of feelings about not belonging, being unhappy with your body, uncomfortable with being sexualised or having a same sex attraction etc could easily be confused for "I'm actually meant to be a boy".

Are the trans discriminated against more so than women or are they just unused to dealing with misogyny?

Just coming back to your question @TheBuffster - I don't think transwomen experience misogyny when they are violently assaulted or harassed. or discriminated against. And we know that these things happen to transwomen, although not at the levels that actually substantiate the claim that transpeople suffer the "highest levels" of discrimination.

I'll just leave this stat here: an average of 2 women a week murdered in this country by domestic partners or ex-partners; rocketing to an average of 3.5 women a week murdered during lockdown.

I think the social ideology which underlies attacks on transwomen is not misogyny, but toxic masculinity. By "becoming" women, these men are seen as becoming lesser, somehow betraying men and masculine codes. They become the despised, the abject. And their existence challenges male/masculinity and its homophobic tendencies.

In this way of thinking, if 'real' men find themselves even momentarily attracted to a transwoman, they are fearful of finding that they might be a tiny bit gay. And they hit out - it's a typical gendered pattern of violence: men deal with mental pain by hurting others; women deal with mental pain by hurting themselves.

Because most men don't see transwomen as women one little bit.

Interesting. Had a discussion with DH about tr the other day. He's very open minded and so naturally came down on the #nodebate prior to research. The penny dropped when we discussed all the reasons mentioned as to why women's rights are eroded. He agreed that it's up to men to be allies to trans but conceded that as toxic masculinity is rife that won't happen until it's addressed. Happily, he has a brain (not a blue one) and no longer thinks women should be human shields for transwomen.
We protect transmen. That's our job to include them. Funny how no one is bothered about them.
The whole team falls down when most men won't consider a relationship with one. Perhaps Radcliffe can put money where mouth is?

As I said on another thread, my DH finally got the full implications of TWAW after Eddie Izzard went full on "call me she". A person who, after years of claiming they were a transvestite man who just liked wearing dresses and make up, now saying they were now staying in "girl mode" really hammered home how ridiculous the whole situation is now.

He was still in the mindset of a transwoman being someone who was uncomfortable with their male body who resorted to surgery and hormones, not a man who just liked feminine things.

I feel like we have quite a few unanswered questions on this thread. Anyone fancy trawling back and making a list? I don't imagine they'll be answered, but would be good to have a summary for lurkers.

@TheBuffster

If they really wanted to be inclusive they could write. "Women and others' who menstruate" Why didn't they? Because it highlights how wrong it sounds.

It also highlights their utter ignorance. Imagine you are not a woman and you are bleeding from your nether region. It’s an incredibly dangerous thing and one of the symptoms of cancer actually. Now imagine these ‘menstruating’, non-women ‘people’ ignore the symptoms because they start considering this normal. Same happened with the children receiving puberty blockers which caused irreparable damage.

@Gardeniaofdelights

She’s made a series of transphobic comments. There are other things too (using the name of a pioneer of gay conversion therapy as her pen name, racial insensitivity in some parts of the Harry Potter series, vocal support for Johnny Depp after it emerged that he had assaulted his wife, retconning diversity into Harry Potter for credit) but the most prominent criticism is the transphobia.

OMG do people actually believe this utter shite?

OMG do people actually believe this utter shite

Which bit?
The racial insensitivity someone has detailed more upthread, so not utter shite
The transphobia, well that all depends on your point of view doesn't it
(I'm actually a big HP fan before anyone assumes I'm not)

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5847585/amp/Cancer-Research-UK-swaps-woman-campaign-avoid-offending-transgender-people.html

Yes imagine how many women in the UK have difficulty understanding the phrase 'people with a cervix'. That's vulnerable adults and ESL speakers right there.
Of course no word on changing men to people with prostrates.
I wouldn't normally post a DM article but this issue makes strange bedfellows.

"Well, that answered my question confused
I'll take it you think it should be a yes then.
Still not going to be irtrationally scared of trans people just like I'm not going to be irrationally scared of men."
Its not irrational to be scared of men.
You asked me where I draw the line.
I'll tell you.
I draw the line at womens sex segregated spaces.
Any male person who crosses that line, with complete contempt and disregard for my comfort, dignity and boundaries, is exactly the kind of male we should be keeping out.
Decent men dont trample womens boundaries.
Again im saying no.
Its a certain type of man that ignores a woman's clear no.
The type that means womens only safe spaces are needed so badly.