To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

@Raffie13 What do you say about the part of the paper where it states that they did not prove an association between the MMR vaccine and the syndrome described and that further research is needed?

No more unpleasant that suggesting we should be systemically wiped out. I was initially fairly reasonable and polite but being constantly told I should be genocided simply for having the audacity to exist tends to irritate

No one said that to you. No one. And you are very unpleasant for dismissing other people's experiences. Think about that.

@SinkGirl

Just imagine how different the world would be without Wakefield and Nigel Farage....

I have twins who are autistic. They had skill regression at 18 months, for one it was basically overnight. If it had happened shortly after a vaccine I could totally understand why you’d think it was connected because it was so sudden and you’d think there must be an external cause.

There was a mother at school (a long time ago now, when it was all kicking off) who has twins. Both had overnight regression but very shortly after the vaccine.

She's not an anti vaxer by any means but has been left wondering for years. She doesn't make any assertions but it was spookily coincidental.

However, from what you've said, it was likely just that.

@Lalliella

Most importantly though: there is no link between the MMR and autism, there never was it was all made up, there is a tonne of evidence that Andrew Wakefield is a fucking conman and a liar.

His sample size was 12. He’s a fucking quack and a charlatan. And he got struck off, and rightly so. People who believe what he said are idiots.

That's a bit harsh. My youngest had the MMR just when it was going off in the news. I distinctly remember our Dr. advising that there was research published that suggested links with autism but at that time the fraud hadn't fully surfaced.

Our daughter was one of the first to receive it but we were worried as hell. ~20 years ago we had dial up and the internet was shit so there was no way of knowing.

Maybe nowadays but you definitely weren't an idiot for fearing the news of the time. As my post above, a woman at school has two boys with autism, who regressed after being vaccinated. It scared the shit out of a lot of people.

I have 2 very autistic sons. One extremely intelligent but also extremely anxious and became nonverbal in his teens. The other very delayed as a baby and non-verbal until he was 8 now in a class with other children who present with severe learning difficulties but probably don't. Welcome to the world of "complex"

They were both clearly autistic from birth, though with very different presentations.

Ds2 had regular progression regression cycles until puberty. What tended to happen w as that he'd only progress on one skill but lose everything else while he was developing it.

What a horrible thread. People with concerns about post-vaccine brain damage don’t hate autistic people. What an absolute load of rubbish! They don’t fear people with autism! Worrying about your child suffering side effects of chemo isn’t because you hate bald people...
It’s the same as saying you take the MMR because you don’t want your child to go deaf due to measles, because you loathe deaf people.

I don’t understand any of the nonsense in this thread!

Morning all!

I'm going to clarify my OP a bit, if you have concerns about the vaccines for OTHER reasons e.g. the small risks of allergic reaction (which do not include autism) then that's understandable. Nobody is trying to repress this information or make out that vaccines are 110% perfect, but the information suggests that autism is formed in utero and therefore cannot be caused by vaccines alone. To suggest so and to try to conform other people to this ideology under the guise of "vaccines cause autism which will ruin your child" is not correct.

I'm not suggesting this is all people who have worries about vaccines themselves or physiological conditions that mean they can't take vaccines, BUT if the "autism risk" should not even factor into your decision making let alone be the deciding factor. Because that would be saying you would prefer the potential dead or seriously ill children to the unfounded potential of autistic ones. That's all, felt I should clarify.

There was concern about the MMR before Wakefield came along.

But I don't think people do think vaccines cause autisim. They can, however, cause nasty long term side effects in rare cases, which is why, in my view, they should never be compulsory.

The fact that vaccine damage legislation exists (and pre-dates the MMR controversy) kind of illustrates vaccines are not always safe as you've pointed out in your last post.

Yes @cologne4711 when i looked in to idividual vaccines instead of mmr this what brought home to me. All vaccines have risks. I agree that they should not be compulsory.

@Viviennemary i remember that being in the news now you mention it.

This debate has been on MN so many times, it’s kind of getting boring now. It’s hard for me to post as I have a child who had a bad reaction to the MMR, she had a seizure and ended up in hospital, took a while for anyone to admit that the vaccine caused the seizure. My dd does have autism as does her sister but dd2 showed no signs of being in the spectrum as a baby (unlike her sister). I don’t believe the MMR was the cause of dd2’s ASD but she regressed hugely after the 2nd MMR. The reaction dd had to the MMR has made me wary of other vaccinations and dd hasn’t had any since the MMR but she is due vaccinations soon (meningitis and another one). We refused the cervical cancer vaccine and the flu vaccine. I have nothing against people who vaccinate and nothing against people who chose not too, it should always be down to choice. My other dc has had all the vaccines offered but has never had a reaction.

Forest Nymph you don't get to speak for all high functioning autistics.

My son is intellectually / cognitively top 5%. His anxiety is crippling.

He hasn't been able to go to school since the age of 10. He can have violent outbursts when he is emotionally unregulated.

Of course I would change the world and not my son but that's unrealistic. So that being the case I would wish my son's difficulties away with a heart beat.

To suggest that that is erasing you or eugenics is frankly offensive.

I think the problem here is that 'autism' covers such a wide range of difficulties. But it is not in your gift to belittle or to call other people names because of your experience.

I have a family member who is very vocal about not believing in vaccines - or any medication for that matter, to such an extent that they now have very poorly controlled diabetes and is now at risk of losing their licence. What amazes me is that they can be so distrusting of thousands of good doctors who save lives daily and yet fully believe one man who made false claims and was disbarred because of that.

@cantdothisnow1

Forest Nymph you don't get to speak for all high functioning autistics.

My son is intellectually / cognitively top 5%. His anxiety is crippling.

He hasn't been able to go to school since the age of 10. He can have violent outbursts when he is emotionally unregulated.

Of course I would change the world and not my son but that's unrealistic. So that being the case I would wish my son's difficulties away with a heart beat.

To suggest that that is erasing you or eugenics is frankly offensive.

I think the problem here is that 'autism' covers such a wide range of difficulties. But it is not in your gift to belittle or to call other people names because of your experience.

How old is your son? I had difficulties similar to that at one point. I don't now. Autistics tend to take longer to get to certain points than NTs.

I won't pretend I'm nor horrified at the amount of parents who would change their children. I was extra appreciative of mine last night simply due to this thread.

I'd also be interested to know whether your sons anxiety is intrinsic or is it because of how others treat him?

My son has a great life because his mother doesn't wish he was different. Do you ever notice that the parents who are autism positive generally have great children whereas the ones who see it as a negative don't? Funny that.

You are unbelievable.

My 14 year old high functioning son (top 5 % cognitively) can't -

Go to school
Get out of bed most days
Bear the feeling of water on his skin to brush his teeth or to wash most of the time.
Take public transport.
The list goes on...

When he is not regulated he can be violent to himself, others and things.

It is highly unlikely he will be able to live independently as an adult

BUT according to you this is because I wish he was different.

You are f*ing unbelievable, and ableist.

Forest Nymph - I have cross posted he is 14, unlikely to live an independent adult life.

I'm sorry I'm absolutely outraged.

He probably can't do GCSEs because although he is cognitively capable, everything he does that is marked is coming in at grade 7+ he just can't get to the point of opening the book, let alone getting in to an exam centre.

@cantdothisnow1

My son has a great life because his mother doesn't wish he was different. Do you ever notice that the parents who are autism positive generally have great children whereas the ones who see it as a negative don't? Funny that.

You are unbelievable.

My 14 year old high functioning son (top 5 % cognitively) can't -

Go to school
Get out of bed most days
Bear the feeling of water on his skin to brush his teeth or to wash most of the time.
Take public transport.
The list goes on...

When he is not regulated he can be violent to himself, others and things.

It is highly unlikely he will be able to live independently as an adult

BUT according to you this is because I wish he was different.

You are f*ing unbelievable, and ableist.

Homeschool him. School is an atrocious environment for kids anyway.

Sensory issues with water are something my son has, we eventually found a certain type of bath bomb makes the water a nice experience for him. This is likely to be highly individual.

The anxiety he feels is likely due to how the world treats him.

No. The ableists are the ones who want to wipe out autism and change us. How would you feel if I said I want to wipe out NTs and live with autistics only? There's merits to that - a higher average IQ, less stupid social norms, no parents acting like heroes for merely tolerating their child.

I have no time for parents who can't appreciate the wonderful gift of an ND child and I don't really care if you're offended by that. I'll carry on with my fantastic kids and brilliant life and you can stay lamenting the way things "should" be.

As for the anxiety it was about the world around him to start with. Nothing to do with how he is treated.

He tried to kill himself at 10 because he couldn't cope. We have literally removed ALL DEMANDS no pressure, he gets to choose and he's still crippled with anxiety 4 years later.

How dare you again suggest that it is down to the attitude of those around him.

He's been homeschooled for 4 YEARS!!!!!

@cantdothisnow1

Forest Nymph - I have cross posted he is 14, unlikely to live an independent adult life.

I'm sorry I'm absolutely outraged.

He probably can't do GCSEs because although he is cognitively capable, everything he does that is marked is coming in at grade 7+ he just can't get to the point of opening the book, let alone getting in to an exam centre.

So what? GCSEs and all exams are merely a way of comparing and categorising. Why do you feel the need to have your child "prove" his intellect by jumping through a ridiculous amount of hoops?

Threads like this remind me why I dislike society.

@cantdothisnow1

As for the anxiety it was about the world around him to start with. Nothing to do with how he is treated.

He tried to kill himself at 10 because he couldn't cope. We have literally removed ALL DEMANDS no pressure, he gets to choose and he's still crippled with anxiety 4 years later.

How dare you again suggest that it is down to the attitude of those around him.

I'm not saying your attitude. I'm saying the world at large. The world likes to discriminate against autistic people.

Yes, once someone has severe anxiety its generally hard to remove it. But had it not been there in the first place, you wouldn't be in this position.

He would LOVE to be able to go to school and do things that his peers can do. He has no pressure from us, HE is acutely aware of what HIS differences are, we don't need to point them out and don't.

At the moment if I can get him out of the house for a walk in the day I am lucky.

You said

My son has a great life because his mother doesn't wish he was different. Do you ever notice that the parents who are autism positive generally have great children whereas the ones who see it as a negative don't? Funny that.

That's parent blaimng if the child isn't great. My child's life isn't great. He is high functioning but can barely function.

I couldn't care less about GCSEs but not having them is yet another barrier to his independence.

I suppose it doesn't really matter because he can't leave his bedroom anyway!

@cantdothisnow1

He would LOVE to be able to go to school and do things that his peers can do. He has no pressure from us, HE is acutely aware of what HIS differences are, we don't need to point them out and don't.

At the moment if I can get him out of the house for a walk in the day I am lucky.

Yes because society tends to instill the idea that difference is bad. I'm not saying you are actively doing that.

Also, don't make any assumptions about what he will be like as an adult from behaviour at age 14. At age 14 I was a chronic school refuser and uses to smash things up. My dad thought I wouldn't sit GCSEs. I'm now a married professional, mother of 3, I went to university and you wouldn't "know". So, even though I'm sure you don't like me or my opinions, that's something worth thinking about.