To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

The autism has CAUSED the anxiety. The conditions are comorbid.

Haven't RTFT but autistic traits can become more pronounced / noticeable (what's sometimes called a regression) after a head injury, illness etc and I can believe that a vaccine could also cause a similar change, as it can cause fever, it affects the gut and there's a link between gut health and neurodevelopmental issues etc.

That's not the same as saying vaccines cause autism.

But it might explain why some children's traits seem to become apparent after a vaccine.

@cantdothisnow1

You said

My son has a great life because his mother doesn't wish he was different. Do you ever notice that the parents who are autism positive generally have great children whereas the ones who see it as a negative don't? Funny that.

That's parent blaimng if the child isn't great. My child's life isn't great. He is high functioning but can barely function.

I've noticed a trend; that the cure types always seem to have worse experiences and I do think the kids can sense their parents view them as a disappointment. I'm not saying you necessarily fall into that camp or that everyone who is currently struggling does.

@cantdothisnow1

The autism has CAUSED the anxiety. The conditions are comorbid.

Autism doesn't cause anxiety in a vacuum. If people accepted autistics as we are, there wouldn't be such a high rate of anxiety.

He may well find his path late but never ever tell me that I shouldn't wish that he had an easy ride in life.

The Autism has caused the difficulties.

I haven't been able to work for 4 years to keep him alive. It's ruined my marriage and relationship with my friends because I can't ever leave him. Don't ever tell me I should be really happy with the situation.

Because they are stupid. Nothing else to it.

If you choose to believe a paper that the author admits is wrong, everyone else has disproved it, and you still choose to believe in it, you're an idiot. Be offended by that all you want, but you're a moron. Even the author will think you're an idiot.

@cantdothisnow1

He may well find his path late but never ever tell me that I shouldn't wish that he had an easy ride in life.

The Autism has caused the difficulties.

I haven't been able to work for 4 years to keep him alive. It's ruined my marriage and relationship with my friends because I can't ever leave him. Don't ever tell me I should be really happy with the situation.

Autism doesn't cause difficulties in a vacuum. Its b neurotypical society, not your son or autism, thats the issue.

Talk to adult autistics. You'll find many share my view. I'm not a lone weirdo shouting into the void.

Autism doesn't cause anxiety in a vacuum. If people accepted autistics as we are, there wouldn't be such a high rate of anxiety.

With respect this is complete and utter nonsense. Things I can't change, the sound of traffic, the feeling of movement, the feeling of water, the feeling of movement, all of these things have caused anxiety. How do you propose that these things can change?

Yes it would help if nt's would modify their language and if there could be less standardised testing blah blah blah but in the absence of those my child STILL has acute anxiety due to sensory issues that cannot be removed. This is due to his autism.

I understand due to your autism you probably see things in black and white but I am telling you (with my considerable experience) that the world cannot be changed sufficient to change my child's experience or to eradicate his crippling anxiety. Please respect my child's experience as valid.

Autism doesn't cause difficulties in a vacuum. Its b
neurotypical society, not your son or autism, thats the issue.

I know for me, now that I have a predominantly isolated lifestyle I experience less anxiety. There's still the chronic anxiety that's always on the backburner in my mind but that anxiety is tolerable and manageable, in a way that active anxiety in the outside world isn't. I think anxiety and autism are interlinked conditions but the anxiety is significantly worsened by a society that doesn't understand or accept neurodiverse individuals which is an isolating experience.

I was brought up in an anti-vax family (gypsy).

I wasn't vaccinated and I always thought I'd never ever vaccinate my own children. This year I have started to strongly reconsider that as I'm going to start TTC next year. It's a scary decision to make for me personally, but after reading a lot of information, I think I have to do what's right for my future DC.

I'm not calling you a lone weirdo, I've no doubt that some other high functioning autistics will share your view.

I am suggesting that others (outside of your group) may experience things differently.

As you have stated not all NTs are the same, it follows that not all autistics are the same.

You don't get to speak for my son.

@coolitcathy I have never seen any evidence that proves that Autism is purely genetic. Is it not at all possible for you to believe it (in all it’s many different forms) could have more than one cause? Children can inherit deafness, children can go deaf through accident or illness or even (I may add) as a reaction to antibiotics or vaccines. Why is it that autism can not possibly have any other cause than genetics? How can you look at a high functioning, high achieving, socially awkward autistic person and a low functioning, non-verbal, violent autistic person and claim that both these people have a gift that should be celebrated and not wished away? How can you lump them under the same umbrella of “proved to be caused by genetics” when they are clearly so different, and in fact I am sure you cannot produce a single study that claims such.
It seems you goal in starting this thread was to stir up hatred towards “anti vaxxers” by claiming they hate and want rid of autistic people. If you had a healthy neurotically child who became non-verbal, head banging, and smearing shit up the walls in the space of a few days post vaccination, I doubt you’d be celebrating their differences!

@cantdothisnow1

Autism doesn't cause anxiety in a vacuum. If people accepted autistics as we are, there wouldn't be such a high rate of anxiety.

With respect this is complete and utter nonsense. Things I can't change, the sound of traffic, the feeling of movement, the feeling of water, the feeling of movement, all of these things have caused anxiety. How do you propose that these things can change?

Yes it would help if nt's would modify their language and if there could be less standardised testing blah blah blah but in the absence of those my child STILL has acute anxiety due to sensory issues that cannot be removed. This is due to his autism.

I understand due to your autism you probably see things in black and white but I am telling you (with my considerable experience) that the world cannot be changed sufficient to change my child's experience or to eradicate his crippling anxiety. Please respect my child's experience as valid.

This is verging onto hypotheticals a bit, but imagine autistics were the majority. We may have a society with high speed train connections or more electric vehicles, eliminating issues with traffic sounds or smells. We likely wouldn't have loud music blasting from every goddamn store, or flourescent lights on indoors all the time. We likely wouldn't place emphasis on small talk and social norms, one of the things that causes us anxiety in groups. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Yes there would always be an individual thing that causes an individual person anxiety, and that applies to NTs as well. Some people are afraid of spiders, or snakes or whatever.

But a society constructed by us would look radically different from the one we have.

We aren't the issue. Society is.

@coolitcathy

*Autism doesn't cause difficulties in a vacuum. Its b neurotypical society, not your son or autism, thats the issue.*

I know for me, now that I have a predominantly isolated lifestyle I experience less anxiety. There's still the chronic anxiety that's always on the backburner in my mind but that anxiety is tolerable and manageable, in a way that active anxiety in the outside world isn't. I think anxiety and autism are interlinked conditions but the anxiety is significantly worsened by a society that doesn't understand or accept neurodiverse individuals which is an isolating experience.

Same for me. I live rural, grow my own food, make a lot of my own stuff. Design my house how I want. Spend my time among forests with my kids or reading books. Miraculously I no longer feel anxious about stuff.

@coolitcathy

*Autism doesn't cause difficulties in a vacuum. Its b neurotypical society, not your son or autism, thats the issue.*

I know for me, now that I have a predominantly isolated lifestyle I experience less anxiety. There's still the chronic anxiety that's always on the backburner in my mind but that anxiety is tolerable and manageable, in a way that active anxiety in the outside world isn't. I think anxiety and autism are interlinked conditions but the anxiety is significantly worsened by a society that doesn't understand or accept neurodiverse individuals which is an isolating experience.

Yes i agree, that's why I have removed all demands etc for my son over the last 4 years, he was trying to kill himself his anxiety was so bad.

BUT from my view there are some anxiety inducing things that can't be changed. These are predominantly sensory based. It may well be that my son suffers from sensory differences more than many HF autistics.

@cantdothisnow1

I'm not calling you a lone weirdo, I've no doubt that some other high functioning autistics will share your view.

I am suggesting that others (outside of your group) may experience things differently.

As you have stated not all NTs are the same, it follows that not all autistics are the same.

You don't get to speak for my son.

I appreciate that everyone isn't the same, and there will be a small minority of autistics that don't like being autistic. The overwhelming majority of us however, are happy with who we are and don't wish to be cured. Whenever they ask autistics the result is always the same - a huge majority saying we don't want a cure.

I live semi rurally too.

He STILL has anxiety caused by sensory triggers related to autism.

Well Forest I'm happy you feel like that.

But don't discount other views.

And don't parent blame.

I really hope my son will find his place. In the meantime his life is pretty shit.

Yeah because society was designed by neurotypicals and so those triggers still exist. Are you aware of the social model of disability?

I apologise if my earlier comment offended you btw. It was mainly in response to the person who said they want to eradicate autism from the gene pool.

@cantdothisnow1

Well Forest I'm happy you feel like that.

But don't discount other views.

And don't parent blame.

I really hope my son will find his place. In the meantime his life is pretty shit.

I genuinely hope your son feels happier and more comfortable soon. 14 was a shit time for me too, wouldn't go back if you paid me. I wish him the best.

This is verging onto hypotheticals a bit, but imagine autistics were the majority. We may have a society with high speed train connections or more electric vehicles, eliminating issues with traffic sounds or smells. We likely wouldn't have loud music blasting from every goddamn store, or flourescent lights on indoors all the time. We likely wouldn't place emphasis on small talk and social norms, one of the things that causes us anxiety in groups. Do you see where I'm going with this?

This is all very lovely but how on earth is it helpful?

We are in the situation we are in.

I have adapted OUR world as much as I can and I have removed all demands and the anxiety is still crippling.

My son DOESN,T take public transport, go to shopping centres, go to school and is put under zero pressure to do so, and yet he is still anxious and depressed about his differences.

We can't even sit in a Macdonalds for example. He likes a big mac but I have to do a drive through and bring it home.

He has no life, it is barely an existence.

Thank you for your words about hoping he feels better and how you felt at 14.

@cantdothisnow1

This is verging onto hypotheticals a bit, but imagine autistics were the majority. We may have a society with high speed train connections or more electric vehicles, eliminating issues with traffic sounds or smells. We likely wouldn't have loud music blasting from every goddamn store, or flourescent lights on indoors all the time. We likely wouldn't place emphasis on small talk and social norms, one of the things that causes us anxiety in groups. Do you see where I'm going with this?

This is all very lovely but how on earth is it helpful?

We are in the situation we are in.

I have adapted OUR world as much as I can and I have removed all demands and the anxiety is still crippling.

My son DOESN,T take public transport, go to shopping centres, go to school and is put under zero pressure to do so, and yet he is still anxious and depressed about his differences.

We can't even sit in a Macdonalds for example. He likes a big mac but I have to do a drive through and bring it home.

He has no life, it is barely an existence.

The point of what I'm saying is that it isn't that autism is inherently bad or wrong or defective. Its just that the world isn't designed for us. Its a bit like expecting a monkey to swim like a shark, its just the wrong environment. Its very irritating for parents and autistics alike (I'm both autistic and parent of at least one autistic, I suspect my other kids too), but it still doesn't make autism inherently a negative. Its just unfortunately not a good fit for current society.

Why is it that autism can not possibly have any other cause than genetics?
"Because autism runs in families, genes likely play a role. Other risks include:

Mothers and fathers who have children late in life
Pregnant woman who drink alcohol or have conditions like diabetes and obesity
Pregnant women who take antiseizure drugs
Untreated phenylketonuria (called PKU, a metabolic disorder caused by the absence of an enzyme) and rubella (German measles)

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism. The exact reason why autism happens isn't clear.
The usual signs of ASD usually show up when a child is between 2 and 3 years old, but experts think it begins much earlier, when the brain is starting to develop. Experts don’t fully understand what causes it. It seems to be genetic, mostly. And it usually involves more than one gene, so it’s complicated."

From a WEBMD page

It's something you're born with or first appears when you're very young. If you're autistic, you're autistic your whole life. Autism is not a medical condition with treatments or a "cure". But some people need support to help them with certain things.

From NHS page

So, there's every chance that there are multiple causes prior to birth (e.g things during pregnancy that affect a foetus that need to be further studied) but all signs point to it being a condition that develops in-utero and has a change in neurological physicality. AKA, not vaccines and even if vaccines had a cognitive effect meaning they exacerbated autistic behaviours, odds are there would still have been underlying autism that would have reared it's head and some point anyway. So at worst, a catalyst not a cause.

claim that both these people have a gift that should be celebrated and not wished away...

I'm not claiming it's a gift. I've said previously that if I had had no experience of autism, odds are I would probably not want to have it (because it is a disability, irrespective of your use of "functioning" labels). However, for the children and adults who are already alive and have autism "wishing it away" is not conducive to anything because a) they are already alive and b) they already have it. I empathise with the desire to give your child a better life and want them to have an easier time, but that comes with the practicality of making life better for them as an autistic person rather than trying to make them neurotypical.

Its just unfortunately not a good fit for current society.

Agree. And that causes my child pain, unbelievable anxiety and depression. No one would ever want a seriously suicidal 10 year old or a 14 year old who can't function because of this misfit.

I maintain I'd take away my son's difficulties in a flash. I've tried to change the environment, it's not enough. I'm a realist I can't change the world or my son, I love him dearly I wouldn't wish the way he feels on anyone.