To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

Not anti vax and certainly don't think it causes autism. I will say this though. Autism if on the very low functioning end can be very painful for both the person and parent. I see it with my uncle who is now in a carehome as my grandparents felt too old to care for him.

I think it's not as simple as people preferring a dead child over one with autism. Most people don't know a single person who had complications from measles, mumps or rubella for example (or they don't know they know iyswim) but nearly all of us know somebody with autism. This does skew perception and people don't automatically understand or critically assess risk. This is why education is critical instead of calling people idiots because not all worried parents are behaving maliciously. It's taken a generation or two for people not to have the shared knowledge and experience of the devastating impact of measles for example. Most parents, fortunately, assess childhood illnesses as mild with no comprehension of what's gone before.

I work with families where the children have ASD and the severity and timing of the skills regression and the human tendency towards guilt means that frazzled, exhausted, sad parents do sometimes make that leap in the absence of other "answers".

I also have a family member whose dc had severe reactions to immunisation to the extent that later vaccines were done in hospital and then stopped completely for the second child. One of the dc has autism and the skills regression in the months following vaccination was profound and distressing. They know, as we all do, that there is no link but objectively, I can see why another family might not reach the same conclusion.

My child with autism is disabled ,he's non verbal won't ever live independently autism in itself is a disability ,whilst I know some people don't feel disabled by THEIR autism it impacts my child massively

@lovepickledlimes

Not anti vax and certainly don't think it causes autism. I will say this though. Autism if on the very low functioning end can be very painful for both the person and parent. I see it with my uncle who is now in a carehome as my grandparents felt too old to care for him.

I agree. But to suggest avoiding vaccines to subsequently avoid autism (which can result in death or serious illness in some cases) is a better idea than working towards helping your already autistic child is cruel.

So these FB groups are telling people not to vaccinate because it causes autism. I get that. Are they also saying if they don't vaccinate the kids could die of x disease or are they, as I suspect, spreading misinformation on risk? I really dont think people are deciding they prefer death over autism. It sounds like this has been extrapulated to prove a point.

My nephew is autistic, and I don't see it the way you are seeing it. And tbh, if people think it causes autism, and they don't understand what measles could do, or they think a hospital could sort measles out, I can understand their fear. More edu action really is needed.

For the removal of doubt, bumbleymummy is a known anti-vaxxer who will post links to questionable "science" sites and allude to vague "facts" about things like MMR triggering autism.

The vaccine klaxon must have gone off somewhere, summoning her and her half-truths here.

@Kaliorphic

I want to know why they hate autistic people, tbh.

I don't think people do hate people with autism. But the term covers a wide range of people and abilities, and for those who can lead a relatively normal life, it's not particularly a problem. For those at the very far end of that, I don't think you can begin to imagine just how difficult life can be, for both them and the families that care for them. I've worked with people who are convinced that the MMR have caused it. I understand, having heard their stories, and seen just how hard their lives are, why they think that, even though the evidence appears to suggest otherwise.

Have you seen blog posts and videos by non verbal people? The level of understanding is greater than people realise. While some people have learning disabilities, so do some neurotypical people. The LD isn't part of autism.

My son is autistic and I was told I likely am as well. Its hurtful that people think they'd prefer a dead child than someone like us.

I think it would help if the general message was more honest about risks. There are rare cases of life ending or life altering complications. I have a cousin with significant brain damage from a childhood vaccine so I am very wary of doctors who say they are perfectly safe. These reactions are rare, but no less devastating to the unlucky few.

We found a doctor who was willing to talk to us about our concerns and spread out the shots so never getting more than one a visit because it helped reduce our fear. Because of that dialogue, dd is fully vaxed. Faced with a doctor who insisted their was zero risk, I would have not trusted their opinion.

For the removal of doubt, bumbleymummy is a known anti-vaxxer who will post links to questionable "science" sites and allude to vague "facts" about things like MMR triggering autism.

Thank you for this information FoxytheFox. I was going to comment but I won't now.

In my opinion if they spoke out about this, reassured people and didn't cover it up with hefty pay outs and stuff on the NHS website stating how you can claim for a vaccine reaction anti vaxxers would have no arguments.

I agree with this.

Many members of my family have suddenly become anti-vaxx, pro immune system (). They like bleat on about 'uncovering the truth.' My mum sent me a recording of a female telling folk to tell their kids NOT to take any vaccines being offered to them in school, and made it seem like the government had been planning to secretly test the covid vaccine on school kids. I had to explain to my mum that that was highly illegal and the vaccine the woman was referring to was the flu vaccination that is being rolled out to more kids this year. There's no conspiracy, but there is a consent form that has to be signed before kids in school can be legally vaccinated. I then sent her the NHS link. She works for the NHS.

No doctors claim vaccines are perfectly safe, what they do say is that the studies and the statistics show that in the overall balance of risk, vaccines are very safe.

We are so far removed from the reality of communicable diseases such as measles, diphtheria, polio, etc and the date they do that some people don't realise what a huge public health impact vaccines have had. Its not just mortality rates, its long term effects such as deafness, blindness, encephalitis leading to brain damage, and so on. My nana lost two siblings to measles, she told me that people used to be afraid when there was an outbreak because they knew that people would die.

I'm sure it was longer than 25 years ago. When my cousin took her baby for vaccination in 1972 she was asked if there were any conditions in the family. Her two brothers had autism and epilepsy so they wouldn't vaccinate the baby.

foxythefox

Ah yes, that ‘vague science site’, the Lancet

Some people on MN have very strange ideas about what anti-vaxxer is.

Andrew Wakefield is a criminal who now earns his living doubling down on pseudoscience and who was rightfully struck off for faking data for payment as well an unethical research practice. He is a nasty, nasty piece of work.

Vaccine injury is real...the pharmaceutical companies HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT. It's listed under the possible side effects. As are ridiculous things that they have to include to cover themselves legally - if you are woozy and faint at the sight of needles, 'fainting' will be listed as a side effect of that vaccine. Vaccine damage litigation is no evidence - it is a legal process, not a scientific one, in most cases the companies don't fight the suits because it isn't in their interests when they can just pay, especially as all the litigant has to show is that it is POSSIBLE their issue could have been caused by a jab. In a legal sense, almost anything is possible.

@bumbleymummy the Wakefield paper is the single biggest source of embarrassment the Lancet have ever experienced and they want absolutely nothing to do with it despite the fact it was the biggest contributing paper to their impact factor for years. The data in that paper was obtained through unethical practice and Wakefield's own student has said some data was false.

Ah yes, that ‘vague science site’, the Lancet

One link out of how many on previous threads like this?

You have an agenda and its not a pleasant one.

Because quite frankly people are dicks. Seems nowadays people can’t thinK for themselves. My whole family, cousins, aunts uncles have been immunised and we have only one person with autism and that’s DS 12. To be honest if vaccines did cause Autism then I’d rather have him be autistic than unvaccinated. The repercussions of catching a deadly virus and far more dyer than having autism,. Of course it’s thier choice but don’t start complaining or blaming anyone but yourself if your children become seriously ill because your to idiotic to get them vaccinated.

I have a family member with an antivaxx DH. I have argued with him for years about vaccinations. Then we all started having kids, and it so happens that the doctors/school think my cousin's child has autism. I agree this must be difficult for them for accept, but I am not a fan of them disengaging with the assessment pathways. This child needs support, it's evident. With the right support, he'll probably be able to go to mainstream schools and live ambitiously.

Honestly, this covid/vaccination talk has made me extremely concerned about easily people will say a whole bunch of nonsense in an effort to convince others that autism is preventable/bad enough to want people to take their chances with deadly diseases. I am really disgusted, and my heart is with autistic people who encounter these messages regularly.

I have ASD as does at least one child. I never had an MMR.

My children had all the vaccinations (including MMR plus some private ones Men B and chickenpox) but I was cautious and they were on a slightly slower schedule and some individual vaccinations so we could asses how they responded as I had some concerns about their immune system (which have been proved correct).

I was cautious, not because of ASD causation but because I know a family who suffered serious vaccine injury.

I don't think it always helps to take such an oppositional stance and say vaccines do not cause injury, it is insulting. They do, but very, very rarely and a good doctor would help someone understand risk rather than just tell them they were without risk.

Literally every antivaxxer I know spent years ingesting every manner of illegal chemical substances

More recent research seems to suggest Autism is hereditary and is to do with a certain gene.

Urghh I have seen this on Facebook and it's hard not to get annoyed with people trying to convince parents not to vaccinate as there is a risk it could cause autism. I do struggle with the whole autism is to be celebrated thing though. I love my DS and he is high functioning but my God it's been so hard and it still is for him for me life is always an uphill struggle. I have never met anyone yet in all the support groups and people I know that said if this was a choice then its one they would say no too. So in that sense if something did cause it and medical science could prevent this in the future then I would be all for that. My son too I know it's not everyone's opinion but autism is a disability for a reason its can lead to an incredibly hard and disadvantaged life.

I don't think it always helps to take such an oppositional stance and say vaccines do not cause injury, it is insulting.

Not sure if you mean me specifically, Sosotired1 but I've not said that vaccines don't cause injury. They have risks, but they don't cause autism. Even if they did, autism should not be seen as such a terrible thing that it warrants putting your child at bodily harm to prevent "catching it" or however some anti-vaxxers seem to think autism is transmitted.

More recent research seems to suggest Autism is hereditary and is to do with a certain gene

Both my autistic DC had genetic testing as part of their post-diagnosis assessments to see if they carry either of the genes so far identified to have links to autism.