To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

It's not such a stark choice as autism or dead. Measles, mumps and rubella aren't normally fatal in the UK. At the height of the controversy I wondered why they didn't just offer the single doses if parents were concerned. It seemed as though MMR was being pushed for commercial reasons and the alternatives just weren't being mentioned.

It's because we don't know what causes autism that people are easily scared and will latch onto any explanation which seems to be linked even if no causal link can be proven.

@Kaliorphic

If you can't accept a "disabled" child then you have no business having any child in my opinion. I'm aware that that is a strong view though and that some will disagree.

I disagree. Because I don't think you or anyone else have the right to decide for other people what they should or should not do.

I just don't think prenatal tests like that should be available within the abortion time limit. If you only want a specific type of child, you're having one for the wrong reasons. Also applies to a lesser degree to parents who try to force their kid to be a star dancer or study medicine or any other living vicariously though them. Don't have a child to be the perfect accessory.

The anti-vaxxers I know are not especially worried about autism, possibly because lots of them have unvaccinated kids with autism.

What they talk about is:

• vaccines created with tissue from aborted foetuses
• quantum dots and similar to track them
• DNA being altered which destroys your soul
• big pharma pushing vaccines to make money
• they don't work and childhood diseases were in retreat anyway
• their kids have superior immune systems due to homeopathy, crystals, diet etc
• Bill Gates being involved in some or all of the above

They don't think it's a choice between autism or a child dead from measles (for example), they think their child won't get measles in the first place.

I wouldn't have an abortion if I had known my child was going to have severe autism ,but people happily say they would abort on the grounds of Down syndrome ,which is also a spectrum .

@ForestNymph

I flat out disagree with aborting people on grounds of autism, might as well abort for green eyes or red hair or anything else you personally find unfavourable. I support abortion rights but I've always found aborting for disability, when non life threatening, to be very sinister. If you can't accept a "disabled" child then you have no business having any child in my opinion. I'm aware that that is a strong view though and that some will disagree.

This ^ Took the words out of my mouth... when we had the test to screen for Down’s syndrome it didn’t matter to us what the results were, the doctor started to explain about options and I stopped him in his tracks. I knew the minute I was pregnant I would support this child no matter what. I personally don’t believe in abortions disability or not, but I know there are some circumstances where it is necessary. That’s just my opinion. I just don’t want an anti vaxxer complaining when thier child is ill, I feel sorry for the child of course but not for the parents.

Forestnymph I have indeed asked numerous young adults whom I work with at a SN facility if they would change being autistic if they would. It's a very small minority that I have found that wouldn't, for most they would prefer not to to have the challenges they face and not to be different. Not just the differences that are placed upon them by having to engage socially but deep inside. I appreciate that is still limited. I haven't spoken to every autistic person out there. I don't really understand how people take objection to the possibility of eradicating a disability. If we suddenly found a cure for being blind or bipolar no one would take offence.

Do you think this scientific development is beneficial @Kaliorphic? Because (of course) for a long time there wasn't the capacity to tell people what they "should or should not do".

It is what is it. I think it's better to know. I think people should have a choice. I don't think that right should be taken away from them. And many would choose to go ahead and have the child anyway. But it needs to be down to the individual to decide, not other people because they don't like it, think it's morally wrong etc. It's not them living with the decision in the long term ultimately.

@FoxyTheFox

I disagree with op's assertion thst autism forms in the womb. The autism genes might be switched on or off in different environments

Autism is a neurodevelopmental condition, there are marked differences in brain development and structure when compared to NT people. Those sorts of changes do not come out the end of a syringe.

Yes. And environment switches on and off genes and its still mot known exactly what factors switch on/off the autism genes. They dont know this yet. It'd be good to know.

If we suddenly found a cure for being blind or bipolar no one would take offence

@tootiredtospeak But you could take away my hypothetical blindness and my bipolarity and I would still be myself. Whereas my autism has permeated so many corners of my personality and affects so much that if I had a magical button that I could press tomorrow to take away my autism, I'd be an entirely different person. I'm an autistic person, not a person with autism if that makes sense because it's not an accessory to me. It's a core piece of who I am. Maybe if I had the experience of knowing what I was like without autism then I'd change my mind, but I don't have that and probably won't and I have to adapt to dealing with my circumstancing and having autism rather than trying to get rid of it.(Just speaking from personal experience)

@forestnymph I totally disagree with you. We all have decisions to make and a severely disabled child will impact the lives of everyone in the family. It's a personal choice. You can't say you shouldn't be a parent if you are not happy to have a disabled child. I have three kids if I had been told that one of them had downs I wouldn't have continued with the pregnancy - that doesn't make me undeserving of my children who have an amazing family life. It's about choice.

I see your point but also how much of you is simply you...your personality and what makes you you. The stupid saying of everybody is on the spectrum a little bit drives me nuts but the sentiment of how personality traits then can be defined as autistic traits is there. My son is very black and white finds it hard to empathise and take on board other points of view. This we have been told is his autism but is it or would he be like that without it.. who knows as it defines him. He hates it it ...it doesn't sound like you do which is really good to know. Without autism I still believe my son would still be himself but without all the harder bits. Or maybe he wouldn't he would be a NT person with anxiety who lacks empathy sleeps poorly and finds it hard to take joy out of life. That said he is 19 and could very much change his mind as he gets older only time will tell. I know my opinion isn't popular about eradicating autism but I still think it would be the right thing to do if medically safe and possible. Abortion no...selection of Gene's...possibly.

YANBU

@tootiredtospeak

I hate that I don't live in a world and era that will accommodate my autism. For a long time I perceived that as needing to hate myself because I wasn't stretching enough to fit into the typical moulds of neurotypical society, but I've let that hatred go and I don't need to hate the extreme and challenging and interesting parts of my personality and autism anymore.

I suffer due to my autism almost constantly, and life would be much easier without it. But I'm also not going to take that risk, and I couldn't advocate for the eradication and potential abortion of autistic people predominantly for the benefit of neurotypical people. We've contributed too much to society and struggled too much to die out here. Your son may feel differently and many other autistic people may feel differently, but that's how I feel knowing what I know and after coming to terms with all that I have to deal with.

DS1 was diagnosed with autism about 12m ago. At the appointment when he was diagnosed, the consultant talked a bit about Wakefield. She'd gathered from the information I'd submitted, particularly the mind map detailing my concerns and DS's relevant history, that I am reasonably clued up about ASD, but clearly she feels the need to advise parents about Wakefield, causes and the minefield of misinformation about Autism and potential "cures".

DS's thoughts on the situation were to randomly pipe up "I'd take that paper, make it into a paper aeroplane and fly it into the bin" ironically being one of a few observed behaviours that helped her to feel she had enough evidence to make the diagnosis that day without further hoop jumping It was rather a random observation from an 8yo that hadn't looked like he was engaging in the conversation. It stuck with the consultant... she very much agreed with DS's sentiments

I suspect there are a few undiagnosed autistic relatives in the family, long pre-dating MMR. The socially awkward, specialist geek clichés... meanwhile this generation of DS and his cousin are in a position to have diagnoses of what would have been Aspergers.

I'm optomistic for DS's future, but he does find navigating through a NT, mainstream education tough. Adulthood should present him with more lifestyle choices. I've grown up with a relative with severe learning difficulties, and DS's difficulties are so very far from the logistics with living with intense care needs, however being someond who presents "normally" has its own difficulties. I love who he is, but it is hard for all when he is finding life overwhelming, and diagnosis is a recognition of the extent of those difficulties even though they present subtly and can be superficially masked.

As the parent of two so called 'high functioning' autistics I think that speculation about the causes of autism are unhelpful. I also think that functioning labels are unhelpful, my 'high functioning' kids cannot cope in mainstream school and don't fit in special schools, they are therefore home educated and have no real peer groups.

Adults can advocate all they like for more inclusive society but unless that comes at the root of everything, which is can't because of how the world is set up, it sadly leaves my children and others like them with crippling anxiety and depression. Being made to feel, at the age of 10, that there is no formal education route for you without you being made to 'look' different when you have tried to mask up till now sends out a clear message about where you fit in society.

To come on to the point. i don't believe MMR causes autism nor do I believe that poor parenting does, although i'd be forgiven for being confused due to the diagnostic approach taken and the way parents are treated by schools and local authorities when their children don't fit.

I wouldn't be without my children but i would wish that they didn't have their difficulties.

The antivaxxers are wrong to play on parents emotions like this, what parent wouldn't want their child to have an easier ride in life.

Would the eradication of ASD be for NT people though or so people with it didn't have to suffer. As a parent faced with that choice if you were ever given it I would be stunned if people didn't leap at the chance. Which brings you back to the vaccine argument which is people being scared that they could make a decision that could affect their child's life in a negative way. I don't agree with it and am certain my sons is genetic but I understand the fear and where it comes from. One day my son may have to decide if he fathers a child who will be predisposed to being autistic and this is a difficult choice if you know that your own life has not been an easy path.

I also think you have to remember it's not a long time ago that there were a fair few problems with vaccines, in the 70's the whooping cough one was linked to brain damage, and aside from the Wakefield comments there were numerous problems noted with the first batch of MMR. This is why people get nervous, 25/30/40 years ago isn't that long in the grand scheme of things. I'm not anti vax by the way but you can't ignore the past and it wasn't just about Wakefield.

they ignore the fact that the apparent increase in autism is down to the change of diagnostic criteria - & that autism as a single diagnosis was subsumed into LD or "childhood schizophrenia" before Kanner in 1942 & that until about 1980 only the most severe form was acknowledged - than (after much work by people like Lorna Wing et al) the research of Asperger in 1943 was used to described the less severe (? difficult to use this term as is somewhat inaccurate) However many people (especially adults) were left undiagnosed & its only in the last decade or so due to politics (Autism Act 2009 in UK & others in other countries) & the internet & networking that things have begun to change.
Of course these adults didn't have the MMR & account for some of the apparent increase

Because they’re thick.

I don't really understand how people take objection to the possibility of eradicating a disability. If we suddenly found a cure for being blind or bipolar no one would take offence.
There are people among the deaf community that are strongly opposed to cochlea implants as they don't regard themselves as requiring "fixing" - other deaf people welcome the change to have their hearing restored. A cure for blindness may well have a similar reaction (deafness and blindness don't have a single cause so there wouldn't be a single cure that would "fix" everyone anyway).

Like many people who became interested/researched Autism I have a now mature adult child who is within the spectrum - they didn't have the mmr because it wasn't given than.
Dr Lorna Wing had a child within the spectrum too

Because people seem to think autism wasn't around years ago it was! it wasn't diagnosed then but due to better medical research an science we now have the diagnosis always hear older people saying we never had that bk in our day yes well you never had all the medical research either.

@coolitcathy not read the whole thread but wanted to say your description sounds like my DD.

I get frustrated at the whole ‘well my ds is so disabled so you can’t possibly know how it is’.

Most people would look at my DD and think she is NT. what they don’t see is when she’s so overwhelmed by the smallest thing that she loses her speech and is self harming in an attempt to stop her brain. It’s private for her and she masks massively at school and out and about. But she ‘pays’ for the effort this takes. No one sees me having to coax her out of the wardrobe where she is screaming and head banging.

The next day she’ll be smiling and chatting to her friends. So doesn’t look disabled, but she is and it will effect her whole life. I can’t imagine I’ll work full time as I have to support her through education as I’m petrified that her self harming will step up so I do all I can to ‘care’ for her.

Definitely around - my brother (in his 60s now) and a couple of kids I was in school with (50 now) would have been tagged today.