To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

It's not just about services. It is also the disability.

The disability wouldn't make you feel your life is ruined if there was a society that accepted and supported you with that disability though. If we were transported to a society where it was normal to have three arms then we may feel like we were lacking, but in this society we don't because it's normal and accepted. If autistic people were in a society that strongly accepted and made space for them, you can bet people thinking their lives were ruined would be lessened.

(and before you bring up "low functioning" examples, there would be additional emotional support for carers of those with additional needs, and practical support like helpers so that, as used by previous examples, carers could leave the house and do what they need to do rather than not being able to go out)

If society supported them and their disabled sibling better their lives would not be ruined. Hence the disability not being the issue, the lack of services is the issue.

Do you honestly think that, even about those with the most severe impairments? That the difficulties would disappear if services were better? I wish I could think that, but I don’t believe for a second that it’s true.

I wish MN would ban anti vax V pro vax

Ban discussion because you don't agree with the content? Authoritarians are so wearisome.

More support and services would certainly help but it’s exceptionally naive to think that they would take away the struggles.

@SinkGirl

"Not being able to speak" is potentially a factor within having learning disabilities that make you "low functioning" but it's not the only factor.

I never said it was. I said that the skills of communication, comprehension and expression alone make your experience of life completely and utterly different from those who do not have those skills.

@ForestNymph I have no crystal ball, I can’t know for sure what my children will be like in adulthood. I do have a reasonable idea of what’s likely based on their current level of difficulties and the views of their various specialists and therapists. I am doing everything I can to try to support them and help them to learn things that aren’t coming naturally to them as they would to a neurotypical child. I think it’s likely one of my children may learn to talk based on his current level - the other I suspect never will due to the fact that he can’t make more than one sound, and never has. That doesn’t mean I won’t try to support this, and also try every other means of supporting different types of communication. There are of course stories of children who were nonverbal / no receptive language skills until adolescence and then suddenly developed them, but we all know this is not the norm.

You didn’t answer my question though. If you couldn’t communicate or understand language would you be happy with this and believe you have a decent life? I think there are lot of things that many people take for granted and have no idea what it would be like to live without them.

Thanks for answering - I wasn't being patronising I was genuinely asking if it was expected they wouldn't talk. Mainly because my son didn't talk for a while and then suddenly came out with sentences. I remember thinking he'd never speak.

No, I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't communicate at all. I don't think many would. But that isn't exclusive to autism nor is it typical of all autistics. Many non verbal people develop their own ways to communicate though even if it isn't through speaking.

@SinkGirl

If society supported them and their disabled sibling better their lives would not be ruined. Hence the disability not being the issue, the lack of services is the issue.

Do you honestly think that, even about those with the most severe impairments? That the difficulties would disappear if services were better? I wish I could think that, but I don’t believe for a second that it’s true.

The primary goal of the social model has always been to take the focus from the individual impairment, and to shift the gaze towards societal structures.

@SinkGirl

If society supported them and their disabled sibling better their lives would not be ruined. Hence the disability not being the issue, the lack of services is the issue.

Do you honestly think that, even about those with the most severe impairments? That the difficulties would disappear if services were better? I wish I could think that, but I don’t believe for a second that it’s true.

I don't think they'd disappear but it wouldn't be such a tragedy. Even things like respite for parents a couple of nights a week would make a huge difference.

I wish there was more awareness of the social model.

That was supposed to quote @heydoggee idk why my quotes are doing this

i pay for better services for my autistic 14 year old who doesn't qualify for NHS services as a result of his autism.

Even those paid for services have not eradicated his difficulties. This is a VERY simplistic approach.

The primary goal of the social model has always been to take the focus from the individual impairment, and to shift the gaze towards societal structures

Always better to look at a series of models and theories not just stick to the one.
Although how would you propose the structures change? What is it you think would help and make it different so that those with the most life changing disabilities can have better lives?

A good friend of mine wasn’t vaccinated. She had no idea. She nearly died of measles aged 37 leaving two toddlers

@cantdothisnow1

i pay for better services for my autistic 14 year old who doesn't qualify for NHS services as a result of his autism.

Even those paid for services have not eradicated his difficulties. This is a VERY simplistic approach.

The services we are after don't exist, so no, it isn't. We want a whole societal change, not just better therapists and the like.

How would more awareness of the social model help my 14 year old ?

I'm not sure anyone's said "if there was better support it would eradicate all autistic difficulties" though. More that "if there was better support, it wouldn't be a life ruining issue". I agree that's not a perfect solution but it's a stepping off point before the issues of autism foetal scans and abortion.

@cantdothisnow1

How would more awareness of the social model help my 14 year old ?

More awareness means its more likely to get put into practise, and therefore he would benefit from additional structures and services in place

The services we are after don't exist, so no, it isn't. We want a whole societal change, not just better therapists and the like

Like what? What services do you think should be there? How do you think society should change?

If autistic people were in a society that strongly accepted and made space for them, you can bet people thinking their lives were ruined would be lessened

I know someone who was killed by their autistic son. It was an accident, he of course didn’t mean to do it, but it’s stunningly naive to think the issues can be solved by changing societal attitudes or additional respite care.

@UsedUpUsername

If autistic people were in a society that strongly accepted and made space for them, you can bet people thinking their lives were ruined would be lessened

I know someone who was killed by their autistic son. It was an accident, he of course didn’t mean to do it, but it’s stunningly naive to think the issues can be solved by changing societal attitudes or additional respite care.

Agree, we are fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay for the gaps in services. We have removed societal expectations and, guess what?

My 14 year old still has difficulties.

Because he still lives in a society that prioritises and favours neurotypicals. This isn't an issue you as an individual can fix by paying for extra therapies.

To answer the other person, its a huge topic and I can't possibly cover everything but - societal structure needs changing. Less emphasis on office work, team building etc, less schools with large class sizes and rigid boundaries and expectations, more sensory rooms for people to access, respite care, in house carers, better attitudes to autistic people, less focus on standardised testing, more focus on individual accomplishment, small community living, less focus on consumerism which as a group autistic people benefit the least from, there is absolutely loads to this and I can't really be expected to wrote down how I would run the entire country in a forum comment.

Less emphasis on office work

In the light of covid there is.

team building etc

Ask not to join in. I never do.

Less schools with large class sizes and rigid boundaries and expectations

This would be good for many kids. How will we fund this?

more sensory rooms for people to access

Where? As there plenty of sensory rooms in some schools, day centres and respite / Res care. Where else do you think they ought to be?

respite care, in house carers
We already have this. Social care pays an extraordinary amount of money for these services.

better attitudes to autistic people
In what way?

less focus on standardised testing, more focus on individual accomplishment
Same for lots of kids. How would you achieve this?

small community living
We already have this. Lots of this.

less focus on consumerism which as a group autistic people benefit the least from
What do you mean by this?

there is absolutely loads to this and I can't really be expected to wrote down how I would run the entire country in a forum comment.
No, but I'm interested in how you see this working.

@ForestNymph

Because he still lives in a society that prioritises and favours neurotypicals. This isn't an issue you as an individual can fix by paying for extra therapies.

To answer the other person, its a huge topic and I can't possibly cover everything but - societal structure needs changing. Less emphasis on office work, team building etc, less schools with large class sizes and rigid boundaries and expectations, more sensory rooms for people to access, respite care, in house carers, better attitudes to autistic people, less focus on standardised testing, more focus on individual accomplishment, small community living, less focus on consumerism which as a group autistic people benefit the least from, there is absolutely loads to this and I can't really be expected to wrote down how I would run the entire country in a forum comment.

ForestNymph what part of me telling you that he is not subject to societal expectations are you not grasping? We've removed all demands. He is, at times, suicidal because he can't do what he wishes he could due to being autistic.

The lockdown was NO CHANGE for us. That is how we live our lives on a day to day basis.

There is no school, no workplace no expectations on this child.

And anyway you are talking about something that is ideological and not the reality that people face on a day to day basis.

I know somebody whose kid has not been vaccinated but has autism. Go figure

@ForestNymph and @tootiredtospeak

Maybe my view is wrong but I think it's not helpful for the autistic spectrum to be so wide - I understand this changed fairly recently

If this had not changed, perhaps you two wouldn't even be having this discussion, as your experiences are clearly different?

e.g. what you would have previously called 'Aspergers' seems miles away from an autistic person with severe limitations - non-verbal, incontinent, etc

It seems as if they were two completely different 'conditions'?

It seems as if they were two completely different 'conditions'?

Yes.