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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

691 replies

coolitcathy · 16/12/2020 16:18

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

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SinkGirl · 17/12/2020 19:11

Wishing away a child's disability IS ableism. It's the very definition of it. If that makes you feel livid then you need to question why and find the answer deep within yourself.

Nope. I’m not ableist. I’m disabled myself, and in constant pain, have been on morphine daily for 15 years. I absolutely wish my disability away because it causes me constant suffering.

I am staggered by the arrogance of people who are able to express complex thought and enter into debate that I am ableist for wanting my children to be able to communicate, not spend their entire lives in nappies and feed themselves. It’s an appalling attitude, and is in your own self-interests, giving not one thought to children who struggle with the even the most basic things in life. That doesn’t mean you don’t face significant difficulties yourself, but please stop lecturing parents who simply want their children to be able to do the things that you yourself can do. And yes it is fucking sad that my children might never be able to tell me why they are upset or having a bad day or that something hurts or which episode of Hey Duggee they want to watch. It’s shit for them, as demonstrated by their distress, and it’s painful for me to watch, and all the changes and acceptance in the world won’t make that go away. If that doesn’t or wouldn’t make you sad then congratulations, clearly you’re a better person than me.

ForestNymph · 17/12/2020 19:12

CAMHS were also rubbish with my cousin who had anorexia and my friend who was depressed because he was gay and struggled to come to terms with it. I don't know a single person who has had a positive experience, as patients or parents.

coolitcathy · 18/12/2020 05:54

I know we've used the "high / low functioning" labels a lot in this thread as it's difficult to describe specifics of a condition without them but I've attached a little photo of why that can be harmful (hope you can read it, it's very long!)

Wishing away a child's disability IS ableism. It's the very definition of it.
I think wishing for someone's disability to be easier or for them to be in less pain isn't ableism necessarily. I see that as caring for people close to you. But I think trying to change or coerce an autistic child into behaving like a 'normal' one or letting them know you wish they were different is harmful. And for me anyway, that's where the distinction is.

To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?
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Tumbleweed101 · 18/12/2020 06:12

I think we understand more about autism now than when the article was published. My ds is 22 and this was fairly newly published back when he was a baby. All I knew about it was it could turn your healthy baby with normal development into a baby with a scary sounding condition I knew little about. They didn’t have the MMR as babies. They did have it when they were older.

These days I understand much more about autism and have experience working with children on varying levels of the spectrum.

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 18/12/2020 06:43

I find these debates so odd. Just because you discuss how autism arises or how it might be prevented doesn’t mean you “hate” autistic people or wish everyone to be the same. What an utterly bizarre leap. It’s a reasonable discussion - most of us wouldn’t want our child to have to live with autism, however mild it is, and discussions will always take place.

People need to stop thinking everything is “hate”.

My child isn’t autistic but has another learning disability. Yes it makes her different and special and there are perhaps some benefits overall but I wouldn’t choose her to have it. I would like to know why she has it. I don’t mind people discussing that. It doesn’t mean it invalidates people with her condition.

Jeez- when did we stop being able to discuss

coolitcathy · 18/12/2020 06:52

Jeez- when did we stop being able to discuss

I'm not sure what you mean, honestly. We've had nearly 20 pages of discourse. I do think autism is a bit different to most other disabilities though, in that your personality often moulds itself around it (as your personality is often caused by your perception of the world and autism changes that) so it's not as easy to detach a person from their autism. I don't think it's hateful to wish your child didn't have to suffer, but I also don't think you should let this be known to your child or attach too much bearing to it.

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tootiredtospeak · 18/12/2020 07:29

I think all parents would agree that we would never give the impression to our child that we wish they were different and didn't have autism. I have had numerous a conversation with my son about his autism now he is 19 and turning into an adult. His side of it is always I hate being autistic, I want it out of me and to know who I would be without it. My answer is that it is an intrinsic part of who he is and that can never change. It isn't something to be scared of or angry with let's celebrate his difference and just do everything we can to accept it and adjust his surroundings to make life easier for him. That is what I would tell any autistic person. That doesn't mean that inside I don't wish he had never had it because of the suffering it has caused him and will cause him in the future and that if there had been a scientific possibility of eradicating it and having a different version of his life with no suffering I wouldn't have taken that because I would. As a parent I find it hard to believe you wouldn't. One day when he is more mature I will ask him how he feels about having an autistic child himself as I appreciate this may feel differently from a NT parent but I would be surprised if his answer would be different to mine who knows time will tell.

coolitcathy · 18/12/2020 07:37

...having a different version of his life with no suffering I wouldn't have taken that because I would

If this is in the context of autism testing and abortion, that brings up the philosophical question of if it would be the same son or not. I personally don't believe we are individually put here specifically, so in my belief it would be the option of having your son with his autism or a completely different son. (this is just in reference to the autism testing mentioned upthread)

I guess in relation to your point about As a parent I find it hard to believe you wouldn't it's a complicated point for me as a ND person, because I would have to adapt a lot to having a close family who wasn't neurodiverse. That's not to say I'd be unhappy about adapting, but there's some comfort in having family members who are similar to you (also potentially why I have an ADHD partner). So maybe in that context, I'm biased because I have experience of autism and so am not especially resistant to the premise of my child having autism.

If I could take away the pain and suffering from being a ND person then I absolutely would, but I don't know if I would get rid of all autism because a divergence in perception and thinking has created so much for the world that may not have occurred without autistic people.

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SinkGirl · 18/12/2020 07:52

@coolitcathy

I know we've used the "high / low functioning" labels a lot in this thread as it's difficult to describe specifics of a condition without them but I've attached a little photo of why that can be harmful (hope you can read it, it's very long!)

Wishing away a child's disability IS ableism. It's the very definition of it.
I think wishing for someone's disability to be easier or for them to be in less pain isn't ableism necessarily. I see that as caring for people close to you. But I think trying to change or coerce an autistic child into behaving like a 'normal' one or letting them know you wish they were different is harmful. And for me anyway, that's where the distinction is.

I agree that high and low functioning are too simplistic and that each individual can have no difficulties or heightened skills in one area and severe difficulties in another. The problem for me is that the word autism alone covers such a massive range of abilities and disabilities that I feel it exacerbates a lot disagreement shown here. I can see why the term high functioning is offensive to those who have huge difficulties in some areas, as it trivialises what they are facing, but it also creates this gulf between those who have the capacity to speak for autistic people and those who cannot speak for themselves (and I don’t mean actually speaking - writing, using AAC, typing, etc is all speaking in my view).

I also agree with your second point - I would be a pretty shit parent if I didn’t want my children to be able to communicate in some form (and I genuinely don’t care if it’s speech, but of course I want them to be able to take in information in some form and express it in some form). But where is the line in trying to change an autistic person? I’ve been told by some that engaging in speech therapy, occupational therapy etc at all is trying to change them. These arguments usually start from the assumption that the child has a “natural communication style” I am disregarding, and that they have social anxiety because that’s the experience of the person speaking. My two rarely ever made eye contact, not because it makes them uncomfortable or they find it painful, but because they just didn’t see other people as interesting in the slightest. We’ve worked on building interaction which has increased their interest in people - eye contact has naturally followed but never has been forced. Them looking at people more means they are learning much more, since watching others is usually how children learn.

We’ve supported them to learn new skills using hand over hand support - it has never been forced or coerced or bribed, it’s support they want and will reach for when they can’t do something themselves as their fine motor skills are delayed. They’ve learnt to do some things independently with this help.

To some I’ve forced my children to behave neurotypically because that’s what they see. Any therapy or support is considered abusive. We are not talking about things like ABA here, some even call PECS abusive because the early stages involve hand over hand support to make exchanges.

I often wonder if the people saying this would willing trade places with an autistic person who can’t communicate in any form, or do anything independently. They’d have to think this surely, since they’d be ableist otherwise by their own views. I don’t think there are many people in the world however who would choose to live a life where they can’t communicate, wear nappies for their whole lives, can never live independently, need to be fed if cutlery is involved etc.

Kaliorphic · 18/12/2020 07:57

They’d have to think this surely, since they’d be ableist otherwise by their own views. I don’t think there are many people in the world however who would choose to live a life where they can’t communicate, wear nappies for their whole lives, can never live independently, need to be fed if cutlery is involved etc.

Exactly this.

SinkGirl · 18/12/2020 08:02

And to clarify I would never want to eradicate autism from the world, and of course I wish the world were more accepting of and set up for autistic people. I hate that autistic people receive any kind of abuse due to their autism, and I hate the “eradicate autism” type campaigns. For some it is a difference, but for others it’s absolutely a disability and I’m tired of seeing arguments that this only occurs where the person also has learning disabilities or dreadful ableist parents.

I also hate the derogatory way parents of autistic children are spoken about - while I’m sure there are those who are a nightmare, almost all of the parents of disabled children I know are struggling people trying to do their best and are absolutely dedicated to their children. It’s terrible that they / we are criticised for being upset, scared about the future, being sad that they’ve had to stop working, exhausted after years of little sleep etc. I don’t see the same criticism of parents whose children have different disabilities that have a similar impact on their parents in a similar way.

SinkGirl · 18/12/2020 08:03

Sorry - due to little sleep that was quite garbled but I’m sure you got the point!

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 18/12/2020 08:04

The few people I know who are anti-vax have autistic children. They say their autistic symptoms occurred almost immediately after the MMR vaccine.
I think it's probably just really unfortunate timing. The autistic symptoms become more obvious around the same time children have the MMR.

bookworm14 · 18/12/2020 08:12

Well said, SinkGirl. There is an astonishing lack of compassion on this thread.

mandarinpink · 18/12/2020 08:16

I have a friend who has a severely autistic daughter now aged 16. She has very publicly blamed it on her vaccinations and is extremely outspoken about vaccinations being the cause of her child's autism. She has 3 older boys too.
Except, one night 10 years ago after a few drinks and she was feeling melancholy she volunteered the information that she knew her daughter was autistic by the time she was 1 year old. 2 years before her daughter's vaccinations.
I'm not sure if she's forgotten she told me this.
She continues to this day to preach against vaccinations as they caused her daughter's autism. Yet she absolutely knows they didn't.
I'm not going to judge her. She has a very tough life with her daughter. It's hard to fathom.

ForestNymph · 18/12/2020 08:21

@SinkGirl

And to clarify I would never want to eradicate autism from the world, and of course I wish the world were more accepting of and set up for autistic people. I hate that autistic people receive any kind of abuse due to their autism, and I hate the “eradicate autism” type campaigns. For some it is a difference, but for others it’s absolutely a disability and I’m tired of seeing arguments that this only occurs where the person also has learning disabilities or dreadful ableist parents.

I also hate the derogatory way parents of autistic children are spoken about - while I’m sure there are those who are a nightmare, almost all of the parents of disabled children I know are struggling people trying to do their best and are absolutely dedicated to their children. It’s terrible that they / we are criticised for being upset, scared about the future, being sad that they’ve had to stop working, exhausted after years of little sleep etc. I don’t see the same criticism of parents whose children have different disabilities that have a similar impact on their parents in a similar way.

The "derogatory comments" are usually towards parents who do wish to eradicate autism and who put their kids through awful ABA therapy.

I don't blame anyone for being upset, the lack of support is appalling.

Duggeehugs82 · 18/12/2020 08:29

@SinkGirl

And to clarify I would never want to eradicate autism from the world, and of course I wish the world were more accepting of and set up for autistic people. I hate that autistic people receive any kind of abuse due to their autism, and I hate the “eradicate autism” type campaigns. For some it is a difference, but for others it’s absolutely a disability and I’m tired of seeing arguments that this only occurs where the person also has learning disabilities or dreadful ableist parents.

I also hate the derogatory way parents of autistic children are spoken about - while I’m sure there are those who are a nightmare, almost all of the parents of disabled children I know are struggling people trying to do their best and are absolutely dedicated to their children. It’s terrible that they / we are criticised for being upset, scared about the future, being sad that they’ve had to stop working, exhausted after years of little sleep etc. I don’t see the same criticism of parents whose children have different disabilities that have a similar impact on their parents in a similar way.

💗 i agree with everything u have said. i mentioned earlier i have friend who has same intense care needs for her son who has genetic disorder, they wouldn't even be questioned if they felt there life was hard and is so unfair.
tootiredtospeak · 18/12/2020 08:59

The derogatory comments are unnecessary regardless. As I have said probably a hundred times now. It's a disability and a spectrum and because there is no way of determining before birth where on that spectrum your child will be I think it should be removed from the gene pool if medically safe to do so. I am not heartless. I do not hate autistic people. I am not ableist. If you want to see me a such that is fine. My disappointment always comes when people will not consider another's perspective objectively and instead choose to use emotive insults such as if only they were a better parent their childs experience with autism would be easier. It's unlikely there will ever be a way to know what end of the spectrum your child would be before birth no considered way to know if the condition will affect them severely or not. So for me I would eradicate it if safe to do so. That is not genocide it isn't a race religion ect it is a disability.

ForestNymph · 18/12/2020 09:06

@tootiredtospeak

The derogatory comments are unnecessary regardless. As I have said probably a hundred times now. It's a disability and a spectrum and because there is no way of determining before birth where on that spectrum your child will be I think it should be removed from the gene pool if medically safe to do so. I am not heartless. I do not hate autistic people. I am not ableist. If you want to see me a such that is fine. My disappointment always comes when people will not consider another's perspective objectively and instead choose to use emotive insults such as if only they were a better parent their childs experience with autism would be easier. It's unlikely there will ever be a way to know what end of the spectrum your child would be before birth no considered way to know if the condition will affect them severely or not. So for me I would eradicate it if safe to do so. That is not genocide it isn't a race religion ect it is a disability.
No, it is absolutely a genocide. You think people like me should be eradicated because it might make your life or other NT peoples life easier.

Autism is a neurotype.

tootiredtospeak · 18/12/2020 09:11

Meh let's agree to disagree eh.

tootiredtospeak · 18/12/2020 09:12

Although the final insult that it's to make my life easier really did hit home that I am trying to objectively discuss an emotive subject with someone who is autistic so its futile.

Kaliorphic · 18/12/2020 09:18

No, it is absolutely a genocide. You think people like me should be eradicated because it might make your life or other NT peoples life easier

She didn't say that. You are totally missing the nuances of this.

Although the final insult that it's to make my life easier really did hit home that I am trying to objectively discuss an emotive subject with someone who is autistic so its futile

Yep.

ForestNymph · 18/12/2020 09:22

Ah yes the "you're autistic so you can't really understand whats going on, poor dear" comment.

Our existence should not be dependent on the approval or permission of NTs. We have as much right to exist here as you do.

I appreciate your son wishes he wasn't autistic. However, when asked, most adult autistics vehemently oppose a cure and are happy to be autistic. Respect our wishes.

Kaliorphic · 18/12/2020 09:27

Our existence should not be dependent on the approval or permission of NTs. We have as much right to exist here as you do.

Anyone's existence in the UK at least is dependent on the wishes of the person giving birth to them, the mother, who may or may not be NT. Not the wishes of some random stranger.

coolitcathy · 18/12/2020 09:27

Although the final insult that it's to make my life easier really did hit home that I am trying to objectively discuss an emotive subject with someone who is autistic so its futile

Does that suggest that autistic people cannot understand emotive subjects?

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