To wonder why the f* people still think vaccines cause autism?

[coolitcathy]

Name changed for privacy reasons.

Stumbled across a Facebook group about "parents against vaccines" a few minutes ago which suggested, nay STATED, that vaccines cause autism and are essentially poison. I think the hysteria is potentially getting worse due to this Covid vaccination that's getting rolled out at the mo. Is anyone still infuriated or is the anger dying down now as we all get distracted by something else happening? Also why is autism seen as such a bad thing?

(If you're anti vax I'm open to you sharing your viewpoints but I haven't seen any information that makes me consider that outlook)

(apologies that was awfully long!)

my daughter is autistic too btw, her autism is different from my sons, much gentler. She is also home educated as I knew enough by the time she got to year 5 to know that school is not a great place for autistic children.

If both my children experienced it in the same way I probably would feel more like you do.

I've not RT whole ft but my DC were getting vaccinations at the time of the MMR and autism debate. For me, what was worrying is that the PM at the time (Toby Blair) wouldn't say weather his baby had received the MMR but was telling everyone else to give it to our babies. It made me doubt its safeness. He also wouldn't allow single jabs, which would have encouraged those who had doubts about the single vaccine to go ahead and give their children (and wider society) some protection. Even then f that wasn't as good as the single jab, it was better than nothing. Lots of parents felt pushed into giving our children something that the prime minister wouldn't even say he'd given to his own child. I felt that if he'd gone ahead, he would have shared that information in order to restore faith.

In the end I did go ahead because the consequences of these diseases are worse than the risk of vaccination (autism aside, there are always small risks of allergic reaction). But lack of clarity from TB is one of the reasons imo why doubts remain.

I also think that governments are not above lying about risk if they deem the benefit to the majority is worth some collateral damage.
Also yabu for asking why autism is seen as such a bad thing. Life is much more difficult for people with autism than it would be if they didn't have it. I knew a child years ago with severe autism and life was massively distressing for him and his mother, who was on her own and not getting much support from anywhere.

I'm listening to all of what you've said MrsHuntGene but I'll just respond specifically to this part.

Also yabu for asking why autism is seen as such a bad thing. Life is much more difficult for people with autism than it would be if they didn't have it.

It is more difficult to live as an autistic person, as it is more difficult to live with any kind of disability. However, inciting fear about what autism actually is (especially the Autism Speaks video I mentioned upthread) only contributes to the social stigma surrounding autism and prevents people from adequately accessing help. And believe me when I say there is a TON of social stigma.

Autism is a spectrum, and even those who are suffering the most due to their condition are in no way "bad" because of it. It presents additional challenges and needs and is often very difficult to manage, but autism is often seen as an ingrained part and to label that part "bad" or "scary" or anything along those lines only seeks to scorn autistic people further.

[quote FoxyTheFox]@NotEver0

Part of why we decided not to have one more DC, despite really wanting one more DC, was that we didn't want to risk a third child with autism. It wouldn't be fair on any of our existing children and it would have pushed us to the brink.[/quote]
Me too

I would have the possibility of eradicaring autism from the gene pool for future generations....
that is true as I don't see it the same way as you. I see it as a disability which affects people negatively in the vast majority of circumstances. Even in your own depiction of life you have expressed how hard it has been to feel comfortable with who you are and that has only come to you later in life. I don't understand as a parent why you would want that. It's not a lifestyle choice it's a disability most children suffer negatively and no amount of hiding yourself away or parent blaming is going to change that. I don't want to offend autistic people one of the people I love most in the world is autistic. I just don't feel your point of view comes from a very realistic place.

@cantdothisnow1

my daughter is autistic too btw, her autism is different from my sons, much gentler. She is also home educated as I knew enough by the time she got to year 5 to know that school is not a great place for autistic children.

If both my children experienced it in the same way I probably would feel more like you do.

I find experiences with school vary wildly. My son cant be in mainstream school despite being "high functioning", simply because the classes are too big and teachers don't know how to deal with him. He got excluded at age 4 because they said he was "aggressive", when what was happening was he was having huge meltdowns due to noise and bright lights in the classroom. At the time he was a bit behind with speech so couldn't communicate what the problem was and they didn't understand. So I do get it. I had a battle for about a year to get him an EHCP and get him moved during which time he was aggressive and very very miserable. So I know it isn't always sunshine and rainbows and quirky maths geeks.

My other kids are also very very clearly on the spectrum but my experience with my daughter is also "gentler", she's not old enough for a diagnosis yet but she definitely struggles less than my son did. If I didn't have my son and didn't know I was autistic I'd have assumed she was just an introverted tomboy type girl.

I genuinely hope your situation improves for him, and I do apologise if I came across as judgemental. I'm sure when I was in the thick of my sons worst moments, I felt rubbish about everything too.

I never said that people who have autism are bad. And it's true that society in general isn't very supportive of those who have disabilities. But imo there's no way that you can reasonably argue that having severe autism isn't a bad thing. Those people and their families really suffer. Lack of support from the state and society is only part of it.

@tootiredtospeak

I would have the possibility of eradicaring autism from the gene pool for future generations.... that is true as I don't see it the same way as you. I see it as a disability which affects people negatively in the vast majority of circumstances. Even in your own depiction of life you have expressed how hard it has been to feel comfortable with who you are and that has only come to you later in life. I don't understand as a parent why you would want that. It's not a lifestyle choice it's a disability most children suffer negatively and no amount of hiding yourself away or parent blaming is going to change that. I don't want to offend autistic people one of the people I love most in the world is autistic. I just don't feel your point of view comes from a very realistic place.

Because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with us. We aren't disabled due to how we are. We are disabled due to society not being built for us. You don't deal with that by changing or eradicating the minority group, you change society's attitude.

I was always comfortable with who I am - other people weren't comfortable with who I was.

Please explain then what changes you would make for the LF autistic children that are non verbal wear nappies into adulthood and are aggressive and so severely affected they are probably never aware of any of the societal expectations that could have been placed upon them. In your view this should not be eradicated because what....they will come to love themselves like you do. With better parenting they wouldn't be like that. What your suggesting only applies to a very small segment of autistic people and even then ones who will have tread a hard path to get there.

I never said that people who have autism are bad. And it's true that society in general isn't very supportive of those who have disabilities. But imo there's no way that you can reasonably argue that having severe autism isn't a bad thing. Those people and their families really suffer. Lack of support from the state and society is only part of it.

The suffering caused due to having autism that strongly negatively impacts your life (in the way people put it as "low functioning) is bad, I agree. Because it causes pain. But autistic people are not bad, and it's easy to unintentionally conflate the two I think. Not by any means suggesting you have, but in the context of a previous topic of aborting autistic fetuses that would be actively getting rid of the people as well as the autism, just as an example.

@forestnymph you do know there are severe types of autism, don’t you? Those people who can do nothing for themselves and will rely on full time (often institutional) care for their entire life? You are clearly not at that end of the spectrum, and if anyone thinks anti vaxxers’ agenda is to do away with high functioning autism, that is just ludicrous. Their agenda is to protect their children from harm. In many cases their ant vaccine stance comes after experiencing their children suffering harm.

@PollyPorcupine

From my experience with my anti-vax acquaintances they fall into two camps - 1) the ignorant and scared ones who don't really understand how and why vaccines work so don't trust them and 2) the better-educated superior conspiracy theorist types who think vaccines are a government/big pharma money-making scam and the rest of the population of 'sheeple' are too stupid to question it.

And then I have an acquaintance who understands them but doesn't think his PFB should be subjected to any vaccine risk for the sake of protecting hypothetical vulnerable people that he doesn't know, as she's healthy so unlikely to be seriously affected if she happens to catch one of the diseases

He's an idiot. The more people who think like that the higher the risk to his PFB as he's basically now relying on the herd immunity to keep his child safe, even if he fails to understand that.

But autistic people are not bad, and it's easy to unintentionally conflate the two I think.

Isn’t that exactly what you are doing in this thread @coolitcathy? 🤔

Isn’t that exactly what you are doing in this thread @coolitcathy? 🤔

I'm quite literally autistic. What agenda could I have to want to do that?

@tootiredtospeak

Please explain then what changes you would make for the LF autistic children that are non verbal wear nappies into adulthood and are aggressive and so severely affected they are probably never aware of any of the societal expectations that could have been placed upon them. In your view this should not be eradicated because what....they will come to love themselves like you do. With better parenting they wouldn't be like that. What your suggesting only applies to a very small segment of autistic people and even then ones who will have tread a hard path to get there.

A small segment? Most autistic people are not in nappies or permanently non verbal. And those that are are often intellectually disabled, which is not a part of autism. So you're conflating two separate issues there.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I never said that people who have autism are bad. And it's true that society in general isn't very supportive of those who have disabilities. But imo there's no way that you can reasonably argue that having severe autism isn't a bad thing. Those people and their families really suffer. Lack of support from the state and society is only part of it.

Do you understand how much it hurts my heart to describe my autistic child as 'a bad thing'?

@ForestNymph
Because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with us. We aren't disabled due to how we are. We are disabled due to society not being built for us.

Unfortunately, many people with autism are disabled by their condition, and that includes many who have no intellectual disability. It's not all to do with society. Contrary to what you said earlier, it can be intrinsic.

You're really not listening to what pp are saying.

Ok point taken but how then do you differentiate. So are you saying you think it is ok for people who are intellectually disabled with autism to have this taken out of he genetic pool or not. If not how then are you changing the world for them so they don't struggle. Really to me it sounds like you don't identify with them at all like you have some superior type of autism that is to be cherished. We wont agree but it does frustrate me that you view others opinions as wrong and that you cannot accept objectively a different view.

@coolitcathy
I mean you are conflating two issues. You are claiming that by not wanting their children to suffer brain damage (which often leads to a diagnosis of autism) antivaxxers hate people with autism. They don’t. It’s nonsense.

The suffering caused due to having autism that strongly negatively impacts your life (in the way people put it as "low functioning) is bad, I agree. Because it causes pain. But autistic people are not bad, and it's easy to unintentionally conflate the two I think.

You are saying that people thinking that the condition is bad makes them see the autistic person as bad? I don’t think anyone thinks this way. It may be how you interpret what others are saying, but I have no doubt that you are wrong.

Lots, but not all, anti-vaxxers do seriously dislike people with autism. This is the niche of anti-vaxxers I am talking about.

"In modern society, a potentially serious adverse event attributed to a vaccination is likely to be snapped up by the media, particularly newspapers and television, as it appeals to the emotions of the public. The widespread news of the alleged adverse events of vaccination has helped to create the "urban myth" that vaccines cause serious neurological disorders and has boosted antivaccination associations. This speculation is linked to the fact that the true causes of many neurological diseases are largely unknown. The relationship between vaccinations and the onset of serious neuropsychiatric diseases is certainly one of coincidence rather than causality. This claim results from controlled studies that have excluded the association between vaccines and severe neurological diseases, therefore it can be said, with little risk of error, that the association between modern vaccinations and serious neurological disorders is a true "urban myth"."

"Many severe neuropsychiatric diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, multiple sclerosis, autism, epilepsy, schizophrenia, encephalomyelitis, encephalopathies, transverse myelitis and optic neuritis, do not yet have a well-defined etiopathogenesis, although important progress has been made on their causes. Several studies have shown that these diseases are due both to genetic factors (intrinsic factors) and environmental factors (extrinsic factors). With regard to autism spectrum disorders, for example, as early as 1977 Folstein and Rutter published the first study of twins and autism focusing on genetic aspects, which showed that the concordance rate in monozygotic twins was much higher than in fraternal twins [1]. Incomplete understanding of the causes of the above diseases has sometimes led to the belief that they are caused by vaccinations; in reality, however, the relationship between vaccinations and the onset of serious neuropsychiatric diseases is certainly one of coincidence rather than causality."

All of this is from "The "urban myth" of the association between neurological disorders and vaccinations" which I found very interesting to read. (found here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4718347/)

heydoggee I never said that your child was a 'bad thing'. But the condition which affects him is. His life would be easier if he didn't have autism. Now you might feel that not having it would change who he is intrinsically and I would never tell you to wish that your child was a different person.
But if it HAD turned out that a vaccination caused autism, people would not choose to give it to their children and fundamentally change their quality of life in ways that might be mild but equally could be severe and that's what this debate is about. If your child had been born NT, would you choose to give him autism because it's not that 'bad'?
The lady I knew couldn't leave her child alone at all - he was completely incapable of functioning without experiencing extreme distress. Hard enough when he was little but what happens when he is a strong man and she is an old woman?

You're not going to change the attitude of these people, so your anger is a pointless waste of energy.

I'm not an anti vaxer, but theres no way on earth my family or me will be having the covid jab. Not a chance.

Focus on the things you can control.

[quote LizzieAnt]@ForestNymph
Because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with us. We aren't disabled due to how we are. We are disabled due to society not being built for us.

Unfortunately, many people with autism are disabled by their condition, and that includes many who have no intellectual disability. It's not all to do with society. Contrary to what you said earlier, it can be intrinsic.

You're really not listening to what pp are saying.[/quote]
Its not that I'm not listening, its that its incorrect. Look at the social model of disability which explains this far better than I could, but basically there isn't really a facet of autism that is disabling on its own rather than in societal context.

For example. I have a very limited amount of foods I eat due to sensory issues. Is this a problem? No. It becomes a problem when work culture is around going out for meals and everyone makes a big song and dance out of someone not eating.

A minor example but there are many I could give