EU blackmailing the UK

[houseinthesnow]

So it comes to pass. The EU have decided unless we agree to their unreasonable demands they will halt all travel, including air and road travel whilst still fishing in our waters apparently!

It is nothing short of piracy.

The true nature of the EU has been exposed for some time, hence our departure - but now no one can be any doubt just to the levels they will sink to.
The EU have no interest in trade relations, nor cooperation, they only seek control and power. The trading relations is and was always, window dressing to create a superstate - and it seems they are now not afraid to inflict as much damage as possible to stop a member leaving.
Even the most passionate remainer will now see how deeply disturbing this behaviour actually is.

One could argue it is an act of war in fact.

It should be treated as such.

I will happily eat beans to the end of my days than be blackmailed by the EU. We all knew it would get nasty at the end, but who they knew they were capable of this. I suppose we can't be that surprised given the past. The gloves are off now for sure - and that goes both ways we should remind them.

Hard hats on.

That nasty blackmailing EU chief woman

EU would not "require the UK to follow us every time we decide to raise our level of ambition... they would remain free - sovereign if you wish - to decide what they want to do", says EU chief Ursula von der Leyen

Say a motor manufacturer wants to set up a factory. This is big business, so naturally governments want to attract it. At present there are rules that govern how much support can be given to the manufacturer, otherwise smaller countries with fewer assets would find it difficult to compete, and one of the functions of the EU is to improve economic conditions in all its member states.
Once out of the EU Leavers want to be able to attract business to the UK, or develop existing business in the UK by any means possible, including by giving help that goes above and beyond the EU rules. That’s entirely reasonable. But it’s also entirely reasonable for the EU, unfairly deprived of the opportunity to benefit, to restrict the sale of such products into its own markets, for example by increasing tariffs.
Even though we’re relatively small compared to the EU, a factory in Huddersfield with its associated benefits, isn’t one in, say, Romania. So Romania loses out

Thank you for taking the time to reply, that was very helpful.

I would love someone from the EU to be interviewed by Andrew Neil and actually be scrutinised fairly and answer the question why can't we have tariff free trade like Norway and Iceland which would of course be of equal benefit as we import plenty of stuff from the EU? I can't seem to find the reason for them refusing, barring it being punishment for us leaving. It's like they're cutting off their noses to spite their face as my gran use to say

Again, I really want to believe Brexiteers aren’t thick and understood what they were voting for and what the options were. But posts like this illustrate they didn’t and still don’t. I don’t need to explain why, other posters already have.

But the idea that this is any kind of mystery to anyone!!

Postman called again

Why won't the EU agree to a tariff free trade like they have with Norway and Iceland and like they initially discussed with May, does anyone have any ideas other than punishment?

Uk turned down that deal. How do you not know that?

So many opinions here without any basis of fact. IT's all just waffle

Why on earth did we think things would be different? I always assumed we would leave with a no-deal - whatever the brexiteers said.

Times like this you wish you had the strength of 27 countries lobbying on your behalf....

@MrsMiaWallis

From The Times -

"But much of the EU’s thinking reflects a mindset that fails to appreciate that the UK was quite serious about leaving in the first place. For instance, the EU is keen that Britain doesn’t deliver what it regards as unfair state aid when the Covid recovery starts. But the EU itself has no plans to restrict itself in this way and thinks that not only its coronavirus recovery scheme but the European Commission and European Investment Bank funding in general should be exempt from subsidy rules. It is not reciprocal for the EU to be able to exempt its €750 billion fund from the treaty’s subsidy rules when the UK’s post-Covid funding would be subject to them"

How can this possibly be fair?

I like kimchi.

Question: Why does it have to be fair? When smaller countries negogitate trade deals with large trading blocks or big countries with their own economic power, it doesn't have to be 'fair' to those outside its borders. It only has to consider its own interests. The interests of the other soverign nation are not its concern.

This is the reality of the big bad world of the WTO when you don't belong to a larger organisation. You are at the mercy to be fucked over, because you don't have the bargining and economic power to dictate different terms. Your choice as a soverign nation is to take it or leave it.

No deal is deciding to leave it. Aka cutting your nose off to spite your face to demonstrate just how sovereign you are. This is why when you make ANY trade deal you give up a small piece of your soverignty in return for bigger rewards. This is what the countries in the EU decided was more beneficial to them. We rejected that, and continue to reject that.

But this is the consequence and we aren't whine thats its not fair because thats what being an independent soverign nation means.

The EU are not obliged to be fair to the UK. They are only obliged to listen to their member states and their best interests. As is their soverign right.

Also thought this was interesting for the 'Australia deal' fan club:

Malcolm Turnbull, former PM of Australia, on Question Time last night :

“Australia’s relationship with the EU is not one from a trade point of view that Britain would want, frankly”

“You've chosen a very courageous time to leave the largest free trade zone in the world"

@MrsMiaWallis

From The Times -

"But much of the EU’s thinking reflects a mindset that fails to appreciate that the UK was quite serious about leaving in the first place. For instance, the EU is keen that Britain doesn’t deliver what it regards as unfair state aid when the Covid recovery starts. But the EU itself has no plans to restrict itself in this way and thinks that not only its coronavirus recovery scheme but the European Commission and European Investment Bank funding in general should be exempt from subsidy rules. It is not reciprocal for the EU to be able to exempt its €750 billion fund from the treaty’s subsidy rules when the UK’s post-Covid funding would be subject to them"

How can this possibly be fair?

Disingenuous. Not talking about state aid but EU aid, which of course if we were in the EU we would be eligible for.

So you’re telling me I’m still in with a chance for a unicorn @Lonelycrab?

The EU are not obliged to be fair to the UK. They are only obliged to listen to their member states and their best interests. As is their soverign right

Hold on. You’re saying other countries have rights?

Surely that’s not right - we’re Britannia fgs. Did they not get the memo? /s

'Again, I really want to believe Brexiteers aren’t thick and understood what they were voting for and what the options were. But posts like this illustrate they didn’t and still don’t. I don’t need to explain why, other posters already have.'

Well if you read my posts you'll see I voted remain.

The arrogance on here is appalling. This is a complex matter and on a chat forum not a Westminster debate it is surely allowed to ask questions? You're wasted on mumsnet hun. Get yourself to Newsnight STAT.

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar. Lets see, free trade without free movement? Now try to answer like a grown up and not a sulky teen.

@MrsMiaWallis

From The Times -

"But much of the EU’s thinking reflects a mindset that fails to appreciate that the UK was quite serious about leaving in the first place. For instance, the EU is keen that Britain doesn’t deliver what it regards as unfair state aid when the Covid recovery starts. But the EU itself has no plans to restrict itself in this way and thinks that not only its coronavirus recovery scheme but the European Commission and European Investment Bank funding in general should be exempt from subsidy rules. It is not reciprocal for the EU to be able to exempt its €750 billion fund from the treaty’s subsidy rules when the UK’s post-Covid funding would be subject to them"

How can this possibly be fair?

I dont have access to The Times but just for the record...

This is not correct. The EU state aid rules allow for aid to be given by any Member State in cases of national emergency or diaster. Yes, the Commission will check such aid but only to check that MS really do have an emergency. So with C-19 this isn't an issue.

The strange thing about the UK is that the UK has never given aid to the levels it is permitted to do so under EU rules - neither conservative or labour govs have done this - so the idea of not wishing to submit to a financial discipline that you have never had difficulties with in the past, seems strange!

The state aid rules are designed to protect smaller, poorer countries, from unfair competition by big countries with deep pockets.

The UK may have had deep pockets in the past but in the future with Covid, recession etc, the bigger concern should be with countries like Germany, France and Italy , who generally have deep pockets and conceptually and ideologically are happy to pay direct support to industry.

@MrsMiaWallis the EU CV recovery fund isn't state aid, anymore than the UK handing out billions to the hospitality sector is or the banking bailouts.

Both EU and UK can fund economic recovery projects, what isn't allowed is providing funding to companies thats alters free trade between members.

Or in the UK's case, seeking to undercut EU firms in favour of UK ones.

This is the reality of the big bad world of the WTO when you don't belong to a larger organisation.

Agree.

The strange thing is that people who claim to be shocked by the behaviour of the EU are under the impression that there will somehow be more 'fairness' under WTO rules.

We have already seen how British exceptionalism and a corrupt government can cause irreparable harm to the U.K. The failure to react to and effectively suppress Covid has led to one of the highest death rates, and the worst economic fall out, in the world, whilst Cronies lined their pockets via a failed test, track and trace strategy and other Covid related contracts. Meanwhile in Asia even Vietnam managed a better public health response.....

It doesn’t exactly bode well for prospering mightily when we face another virus that cripples our economy. that virus is not the EU, it is Brexit.

The hedge funds and other Leave campaign and Johnson leadership supporting billionaires are already piling thousands of billions of pounds into shorting the pound ahead of no deal just as they did in 2016 (even as the rest of the City is haemorrhaging jobs to the EU). Brexit is all about mobilising the gullible against the EU so that the rich and powerful can profit, again.

Are you really blaming the EU when this government have already so clearly demonstrated that they care so little for the ordinary people of the U.K. that they are prepared to allow record numbers of them to die unnecessarily and ensure their friends profited?

Borntobequiet said it more concisely!

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar. Lets see, free trade without free movement? Now try to answer like a grown up and not a sulky teen.

The 4 pillars of the single market are indivisible. All or nothing. It's kinda a guiding principle. None of this is news, or a shock is it ? We all knew this from day one ?

So if the UK isn't interested in FoM, it's going to have to settle for something which isn't what Norway and other non-EU countries have.

And whatever the UK wants, is going to have to be bespoke, as no other organisation would now let us in.

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar.

The EU aren't going to allow EFTA, but a little bit better because that would mean re-negotiating EFTA for all the other EFTA members. Even in the unlikely event that they were prepared to do this, it wouldn't be acceptable to Conservative back benchers.

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar. Lets see, free trade without free movement? Now try to answer like a grown up and not a sulky teen.

Ok. So what does the Norway deal look like? It allows free movement of goods, services, capital and people between Norway and the EU, in exchange for compliance with most EU regulations and a contribution to the EU budget.

We - the UK - already rejected that option, on the basis that ‘leave means leave’.

You’re saying that a ‘similar’ deal would be free movement of goods, capital and services but NOT people, with no contribution to the EU budget and no compliance with EU regulations?

I think that question answers itself. It isn’t similar at all. That’s just separating the rights from the obligations.

But I don’t understand how that can come as news to anyone.

'The failure to react to and effectively suppress Covid has led to one of the highest death rates'

It really hasn't. In context deaths per million pop are less than Italy and Spain and similar to France www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Please don't say NZ with its teeny population and low pop density did so very well.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Again, I really want to believe Brexiteers aren’t thick and understood what they were voting for and what the options were. But posts like this illustrate they didn’t and still don’t. I don’t need to explain why, other posters already have.'

Well if you read my posts you'll see I voted remain.

The arrogance on here is appalling. This is a complex matter and on a chat forum not a Westminster debate it is surely allowed to ask questions? You're wasted on mumsnet hun. Get yourself to Newsnight STAT.

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar. Lets see, free trade without free movement? Now try to answer like a grown up and not a sulky teen.

I've done complex. I've done with being reasonable. I'm done with going over the same fucking points about why we didn't do Norway (our own choice btw). Been there done that, got ignored.

I really couldn't give a fuck if it comes across as arrogance.

I have got pissed off with remainers who didn't see 'The Moment' for avoiding No Deal.

And here we are.

I'm just here for the 'shits and giggles now' and to watch everyone going manically 'but why didn't we do...' or 'but they said...' or 'couldn't we have...'

Well yes, but you are about 4 years late to that conversation.

Its MY TURN to be the bloody sulky teen, cos every other fuckers been it and I'm fed up of being the grown up.

Serious, go away and pay attention in future. Instead of burying your head in the same and saying 'oh well i was a remainer but we should just get on with it'.

Get on with WHAT exactly? Thats the problem.

You can't even explain what trading relationship Norway has with the EU or why the UK rejected a similar system which WAS an option.

What did Leavers think was going to happen? That the EU were going to roll over and give the UK everything it demanded after deciding to leave and go it alone?

@merrymouse

So, as the exact terms of the Norway thing as turned down why can't the EU allow something similar.

The EU aren't going to allow EFTA, but a little bit better because that would mean re-negotiating EFTA for all the other EFTA members. Even in the unlikely event that they were prepared to do this, it wouldn't be acceptable to Conservative back benchers.

EFTA or similar was on the table. It was an option.

We didn't even go near it because we didn't like the obligations it required. May was too busy having a meltdown over why we had to leave EuroAtom too as well as the EU. Which really wasn't necessary.