Person without kids judging parenting

[Piwlyfbicsly]

I and the person in question are both in our 30s. We are colleagues.
I find this person really difficult due to many reasons. However one of the worst is her judging parents constantly. It's not about big things like suspected abuse or neglect. It's about how calm, nice, achieving children equal to "well done, good parents" mindset and vice versa. I am a parent myself and I find it really challenging to listen to it. Every time there is a child she identifies as "naughty" or anything less than perfect, it means "something wrong with the parents". Everything is about "spoiling" for her, which I don't agree with. I find it difficult to accept judgments from a person who never had the experience of being a parent. I am in no way a perfect mother but isn't it obvious that children present with all the range of abilities, personalities and behaviour patterns, and not everything is down to parenting. Two of mine are absolutely different. She's never had one sleepless night due to baby crying, she has no idea whatsoever and I can't tolerate just another lunch break story of how she's done with all these parents, "what's wrong with them with doing XYZ". She had the audacity to comment on my parenting once when we bumped into each other in the local park and my DD didn't want to leave home and made a little fuss (Mummy, let's stay a little bit longer pleeeeeaaaaaasseeee etc). "You have got to be firm with her" I remember feeling my blood pressure going up. I don't know how I managed not to snap.

What is a polite way to stop this? I can try to avoid her, but what's the professionally appropriate way to let her know that she's crossing the line a bit here?
AIBU here? Too sensitive?

@Cokearama. I like that... it's a "technical fault" with my DC that he's always climbing things. How do I exchange him for another one?

There's no point even trying to talk to idiots like that.

@VashtaNerada

I knew someone like this! Hilarious. She once berated me for saying that if I ended up bringing my toddler to work at Christmas (because she didn’t understand why I needed to book annual leave when the nursery was closed) that she would be running around touching everything. Her comment was “You have to be stricter. Get her to sit in a corner and read.” Of course it’s easy to judge when you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

This really made me chuckle, I would wonder if she had ever met a toddler before.

@CutToChase
Oh thanks, I didn’t know why to do, but now I know what my purpose as a parent is!:)
No, you don’t know how hard parenting is, you can try to imagine... But you didn’t go through it. I respect your choice though, you know in advance you can’t do it so you decide not to have children, but you’re an expert in parenting nonetheless.
And yes, we can all judge parents who are clearly neglectful or abusive, but we both know the thread is not about them.

What*

" You're so interested in children, how many are you planning to have? " And just keep banging on and and onabout it every time she mentions childen or parents.

@MessAllOver

At the same time, I know I have no idea what it's like to be a parent, and can't imagine how challenging it must be.

The challenge lies in the fact that children don't have an OFF button or a PAUSE button. You are continually responsible for these wilful demanding little creatures who have a mind of their own, but don't understand the bigger picture and don't want to fall in with YOUR entirely rational plans. And you start on the back foot - you're exhausted after giving birth, you endure month upon month of never sleeping more than 2-4 hours straight, going back to work is an exercise in torture as you're torn in two directions and always failing at both your career and parenting and then, just as things are starting to get a bit better, often baby number 2 arrives and the whole cycle starts again, only with a stroppy toddler thrown in for good measure.

So yesterday we saw a waterwheel while walking to an appointment. DS3 loves waterwheels. I let him stare at it, nose pressed against the fence, for 4 minutes. But then we had to leave to get to our appointment on time. Cue whining, downright refusal, tantrum and then eventually being bodily carried, all 15+ kg of him, until we made it around the corner and he started looking at the next thing. Looking at him, you'd probably have thought that he was an incredibly badly behaved child. Actually, my feelings as his parent are more mixed. I'm incredibly proud of the amazing interest he takes in everything he sees around him. Like many 3 year olds, he is fascinated by mechanical things and how they work and he is always asking questions about them. His misbehaviour stems from a place of being so interested in things that he can't bear to be dragged away but just wants to keep on exploring. But on the other hand, there is a time and a place and he needs to learn that. Also, I'm trying to balance caring for him and giving him opportunities to explore with my job, cleaning and housework, life admin and all the day-to-day shit that we all have to deal with. None of that stuff goes away when you become a parent - instead you just get an extra, 24/7 job with no pay and no holidays .

The first thing my DS shouts in the morning is "MUMMY!". Throughout the day, there's a constant stream of "Mummy, I hurt", "Mummy, want a snack", "Mummy, I sad", "Mummy, come play", "Mummy, let's go", "No Mummy, don't want that", "Mummy, playground". When he wakes in the middle of the night because he's ill (and vomited on the sheets), had a nightmare or is simply wide awake at 3am in the morning and wants to play, guess who he cries for. That's right, "MUMMY". So sometimes, when I'm not on form because I'm ill or exhausted myself, I let him watch programmes on my phone or on the Ipad so I can eat my lunch or finish my drink in peace (even, shock horror, in a cafe!), I sit on a bench and ignore him at the playground and I let 5 minutes turn into 15 or 20 minutes when I've given him notice that we're leaving.

If we've survived the day and achieved everything on our "to-do" list, that's a huge win for me, and I couldn't care less if some judgemental randomner thinks I'm a terrible parent because my son had a toddler tantrum in the park.

Not sure how my post you've quoted and what you've shared here are connected?

I didn't say I don't understand that is IS challenging. I do. I said I can't imagine how challenging it must be, because I don't have kids.

I've been told plenty of stories like yours – I get it in theory (enough to confirm I don't want to do it), but it doesn't mean I understand what it feels like in practice.

The whole point of parenting is to shape future adults who know how to become fully functioning, considerate members of society. So do that.

Sometimes the way to do that is by picking your battles. Remember learning stuff? You must have learned something once. Cast your mind back. If an instructor picks you up on every tiny thing, ignores your emotional state and insists you do everything perfectly you get a) downcast at your lack of progress and b) pissed off with the teacher and disinclined to keep trying.

Being a young child is like being in a complicated lesson the.whole.time. You observing have literally no idea what fine judgements the parents are making to continue that young person's progress towarfd being a functioning considerate member of society. You have no idea at all because you haven't done it. Imagining what it might be like is not the same - and the judging just suggests your imagination is a bit limited.

Nicely put @Popcorntoes

I'm surprised that she is the only person in your life who does this. Pretty much all the parenting "advice" I have ever received has been from people who don't have children.

Not sure how my post you've quoted and what you've shared here are connected?

I was trying to describe the challenge of parenting - not because it is difficult, but because it is relentless and continuous. Sorry if you didn't get the connection.

I said I can't imagine how challenging it must be, because I don't have kids.

I find this strange because actually I have plenty of friends who, although they don't have children, are empathetic enough to understand the challenge. They offer to babysit and leave exhausted . They suggest we meet in the park or in family-friendly restaurants, ideally with a playground. They engage with my DS and chase him round the park. They have fun but freely admit they wouldn't want to do it every day.

Similarly, when my friends are going through tough experiences, I also seek to empathise with them. One of my friends (who doesn't have children) has remortgaged her house and is now working day and night to build her own company. I've never done that myself, but I'm still capable of understanding how draining and worrying it must be for her so I try to make the time (not always easy) to speak and meet up with her regularly without children so we can have a proper chat.

I don't have kids, and I can definitely be judgmental of parents.

Appreciate that you said that you at least do keep your thoughts in your head and not voice them to parents. Given you've said you have no idea what it's like, that seems sensible.

On whether it's right to judge at all? I mean, there's a spectrum. I try not to judge but there are some things which get my hackles up - feeding coke and crisps to babies and small toddlers, hitting children, letting them run into danger or be aggressive to other children. Beyond that, there's a wide range of behaviour which, although irritating, is age-appropriate and so I don't judge.

I couldn't care less if some judgemental randomner thinks I'm a terrible parent because my son had a toddler tantrum in the park.

I stand by this. You may judge. I couldn't care less about your judging. Just find it odd, tbh. I wouldn't judge you if you were in financial difficulties or doing badly at work. Why judge me because I'm having a bad day as a parent?

An acquaintance recently complained about her sister criticising her parenting and said she hoped her sister would have twins so that she learns the hard way how difficult parenting is. Knowing both her and her sister, I can understand why her kids are out of control (her parenting is chaotic, if there are boundaries they are normally enforced the wrong way at the wrong time) and I can imagine her sister will be more firm and consistent and is likely to find parenting less hard than my acquaintance would like
I had views on parenting before I became a parent and they haven’t changed that much. Some of the best parenting advice I get from a childless friend (who by the way is blissfully childless and not at all bitter about it). Bottom line, just because you are a parent you don’t always get it right (in fact some parents make parenting way more difficult than it needs to be) and just because you don’t have children, it doesn’t mean you are not entitled to a view on parenting or that your opinion is wrong.

There's only one thing I judge parents for and that's when they let them run wild in public places. Its fucking annoying when you see a parent on their phone on a train as their children run up and down the aisle. Ditto pubs. Its controversial I know but I dont like seeing kids in pubs. I nearly bashed a kid in the head because I turned around balancing pints in my hand and the kids head was at elbow level. You also feel you have to tone down your conversation when the table next to you is a family out for a jaunt. When you're in a beer garden you have to watch out for your cigarette smoke. Okay if it's a summers day and the kids are running around outdoors if it's a pub that backs onto grass etc. But otherwise I just dont like it, especially as th UK is basically awash with cafes, relaxed restaurants etc.

She maybe saying these things as a counter reaction to colleagues endlessly talking about their kids, that too is draining and sometimes mind numbing. I have on occasion said something harsh just to give the conversation an edge, I used to share an office with child obsessed women, it’s hard work.

@MessAllOver

Not sure how my post you've quoted and what you've shared here are connected?

I was trying to describe the challenge of parenting - not because it is difficult, but because it is relentless and continuous. Sorry if you didn't get the connection.

I said I can't imagine how challenging it must be, because I don't have kids.

I find this strange because actually I have plenty of friends who, although they don't have children, are empathetic enough to understand the challenge. They offer to babysit and leave exhausted . They suggest we meet in the park or in family-friendly restaurants, ideally with a playground. They engage with my DS and chase him round the park. They have fun but freely admit they wouldn't want to do it every day.

Similarly, when my friends are going through tough experiences, I also seek to empathise with them. One of my friends (who doesn't have children) has remortgaged her house and is now working day and night to build her own company. I've never done that myself, but I'm still capable of understanding how draining and worrying it must be for her so I try to make the time (not always easy) to speak and meet up with her regularly without children so we can have a proper chat.

I don't have kids, and I can definitely be judgmental of parents.

Appreciate that you said that you at least do keep your thoughts in your head and not voice them to parents. Given you've said you have no idea what it's like, that seems sensible.

On whether it's right to judge at all? I mean, there's a spectrum. I try not to judge but there are some things which get my hackles up - feeding coke and crisps to babies and small toddlers, hitting children, letting them run into danger or be aggressive to other children. Beyond that, there's a wide range of behaviour which, although irritating, is age-appropriate and so I don't judge.

I couldn't care less if some judgemental randomner thinks I'm a terrible parent because my son had a toddler tantrum in the park.

I stand by this. You may judge. I couldn't care less about your judging. Just find it odd, tbh. I wouldn't judge you if you were in financial difficulties or doing badly at work. Why judge me because I'm having a bad day as a parent?

Somewhere here there are some crossed wires going on – I've been trying to say for three posts here that I'm on YOUR flipping side!

What I'm saying is that I understand it's unfair to judge parents and I wouldn't argue that it's right. AND the thoughts still pop in into my head, because I'm human, and we can't always control what passes through our brains. And I find that both-and interesting. Unfortunately on Mumsnet nuance seems to be so rare that it sometimes sails over people's heads.

Sure I can empathise with parents, sure and TRY to imagine, but exactly as you've said, the relentlessness of it isn't something I can relate to, because nothing in my life has ever been as relentless as you've described for such a long period of time.

Empathy and actual understanding are not the same thing. I can try and empathise with your situation, and I will, but I will never know what it's really like to be you, and I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I do. I can try to put myself in your shoes, but I will never tell you "Oh, I know exactly how you feel." Because that, to me, would be insulting as hell. There's no way I can fully understand.

And the gap between the extent of my understanding and your reality – that's where the judgement has room to come in. And that's why you telling me how relentless it is will only ever go so far, and why the judgemental thoughts will still pop into my head from time to time, AND at the same time, why I'd never say them out loud.

It's not usually about someone having a bad day, though actually, it's more when I see a consistent behaviour over time that doesn't look like a great idea. My DP was something of a Disney Dad with his son, and I had judgements about that. Was it right? Who knows? But the thoughts showed up, and I recognised that I've never been in his position, so I kept as quiet as I could.

I'm not going to keep coming back here to re-explain myself – if this doesn't land I can't help it any more.

But I'm actually being on your side here, and trying to do so with total honesty about my not-perfect thoughts, and some humility about how much of your life I can truly, fully relate to.

If you find that odd, it's on you.

The consequences of being judgemental are almost all negative - for parents, for children and for the person judging. So best to exercise your judgment sparingly.

People often judge based on socio-economic factors. This is because the picture in front of them doesn't fit their 'perceived ideal' of what a family should look like. So young mothers and obviously disadvantaged mothers (and it's usually mothers) are judged more harshly. Parents of children with disabilities or non-neurotypical children come in for more judgement. Well-off mothers with well-dressed children are often given more leeway because they project confidence and onlookers don't start with negative stereotypes.

The problem with this is that the amount of negative judgment a parent receives feeds directly into their parenting style (especially if they lack confidence in their parenting or are otherwise feeling vulnerable). Parents who feel judged or criticized then parent in a much harsher way. This leads to more negative child behaviours, which elicits more harshness from the parent and the cycle is perpetuated. As a toddler grows into a young child, they assimilate the message that they're "bad" and that plays out in their behaviour. Parenting with patience, humour and firmness is associated with much better outcomes for children than parenting with excessive harshness. And it is much easier to achieve if the people around you are sympathetic rather than judgmental.

Being judgemental is also associated with negative mental health consequences for the person doing the judging. So bad all round really.

@ladybee28. Sorry, maybe there's crossed wires somewhere. Toddler up four times last night with nightmares and since 6.30 this morning, so doesn't help . Everything you're saying makes sense. So hands up, mea culpa!

it's more when I see a consistent behaviour over time that doesn't look like a great idea. My DP was something of a Disney Dad with his son, and I had judgements about that. Was it right? Who knows? But the thoughts showed up, and I recognised that I've never been in his position, so I kept as quiet as I could.

Only comment I'd make about this (and I agree with you absolutely) is that, on a day-to-day level, parents who don't actually parent much come in for much less judgement. They're not the ones in touch with schools, nurseries etc., balancing childcare logistics with work and keeping all the balls in the air. So it's not their fault if some balls are dropped. That's why (generally speaking) it's much easier to be a great dad than a great mum. As a society, we expect the world of mums and, when they inevitably fail to produce the perfect Instagram-worthy family life (and pay for at least half of it), we judge them harshly for their failure.

I think this woman sounds awful but the fact she doesn't have children is pretty irrelevant. There are loads and loads and loads of parents who are hugely judgemental because anything that their one or two children did 'right' was clearly down to their amazing parenting and other people only struggle with it because they're not as good as them (anything their child is not so good at is just random luck, though). Mumsnet is full of them! First time mothers of small babies can be particularly prone to 'I'll never do that...' and insistent that toddlers should be entirely biddable because they seem so big and grown-up compared to their babies (I was, I think) - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! It's not a parent vs. non-parent thing, whether or not you vocalise this stuff (I think most people have it, on some level) is a twat vs. non-twat thing.

Hahaha, yep everyone is an expert until they're in the middle of it for real 😂

I don’t really agree with the notion that raising a child well is the same as having a child that is always well behaved and never acts out. Obviously you have to teach them norms and boundaries, but fundamentally, raising them is to ensure they have the skills to deal with adult life. If this makes your life easier by having a well-behaved kid, that’s a happy by product, but that is not the aim in itself. I was a very well-behaved kid and fundamentally I think I was just anxious and underconfident. That wasn’t helpful when I became an adult.

My theoretical parenting was far superior to my actual parenting. I used to imagine I'd be calm at all times, never get angry. Want to spend every waking moment with my child, would never tire of reading bedtime stories. I'd want to engage with them every moment of the day. Encourage them to do wholesome activities and also eat healthy meals three times a day.

I'd discipline them effectively and they'd be little angels all the time. I'd be firm but fair: a real life mary poppins

In reality I'm fucking tired and just want a day off. I cut corners a lot and sometimes dc are little devils.
Ahh the joys of parenting

@hungrywalrus. I agree. I was a well-behaved child (quiet, polite, could sit for hours at table from a young age), but I wasn't raised well. My mother always says, "We could take you anywhere", which is true. But the reproach, recriminations and guilt heaped on our shoulders when we stepped out of line or caused trouble for our parents caused us long-term issues with anxiety and lack of confidence.

@hungrywalrus exactly. I hope you've found ways as an adult to support that inner child who wasn't boosted enough, your insight can hopefully allow you to parent yourself a bit xx

Didn't we all do that a bit, even if we didn't vocalise it? I often laugh at my pre-child ideas on parenting!

There is a difference between judging neglect and harm, and the kind of responses from your colleague.

Would others hear your conversations, so that you can tackle her on things that should be talked about less at work? Talking about children too much might be insensitive to someone who has had a miscarriage or cannot have children, for example.