How many people would vote for the party that scrapped Universal Credit & PIP back to a system of Tax Credits and DLA?

[GroundAlmonds]

Of course I knew the new system was bad and punished the poor, sick and disabled, but I’ve just realised quite how regressive this system is and the true depth of the damage it does. Especially now that we are crashing into another dreadful recession?

How many of you would have your vote swayed purely by this issue?

YANBU = I would use my vote to support the return to Tax Credits & DLA

YABU = UC & PIP are fine.

PIP was deliberately designed to discredit/give zero points to many of the old DLA applicants. That was the WHOLE point of its creation.

@Oblomov20

PIP was deliberately designed to discredit/give zero points to many of the old DLA applicants. That was the WHOLE point of its creation.

Well we can't use taxpayer money to help ill and disabled people live. Not when MPs need it to pay for their generous expenses.(Although they messed up, seeing as though it costs more to pay private companies to 'assess' claimants than it would to accept their doctors are telling the truth).

The idea of ‘affording’ savings is stupid. Either you’re a saver or you’re not. Even if didn’t have enough to feed myself I’d still save a % of my income. ‘Affordability’ of savings is too subjective to decide if someone should receive benefits or not. Savings are a lifestyle habit considered essential by some and unaffordable by others irrespective of income and expenditure.

The whole system needs changing. People who are working full time should not need top ups but they do as wages are low compared to cost of living.

I get paid 4 weekly and from what I understand about UC (I am not currently claiming benefits) if I get two wage payments in a month my UC would be cancelled and I would need to apply again. With tax credits it was a yearly average which worked out better.

Neither.

I'm on legacy benefits and while I'm better off on them (reason I'm being advised to avoid transfer to uc for as long as possible) they are a ball ache for many reasons!

1 they're a nightmare to handle budget wise

When dd was a child and I was receiving benefits for her to it worked as follows:

Child benefit - weekly Monday's
Child Tax credits - weekly Tuesdays
Esa (when I wasn't working) - fortnightly Tuesdays
DLA - 4 weekly wednesdays
Housing benefit - 4 weekly Mondays

I am a VERY organised person with experience in accounting and even I found it very tricky to set up a budget that worked given that most regular household bills need paying calendar monthly! Rent, council tax, utilities, phone, tv licence etc

So there was a LOT of juggling, working out when best to have the direct debits (which is cheaper than paying cash) coming out of my account, the ones I could change, some you don't get a choice.

2 that system could not cope at all with people having varying circumstances - wages, worked shifts, zero hours contracts, varying childcare needs etc it's the dim and distant past for me childcare wise but I seem to recall that was paid at odd times too and tricky to get the right amount.

3 it was very rigid in terms of who got what benefit and under what circumstances. This caused confusion even for staff. I fell into 2 categories being both disabled and a single mum and there was rarely consensus on whether I should be on income support or what was then incapacity benefits when dd was little.

4 moving from unemployed to part time work to full time work was basically disincentivised as it was plain too risky! If you started work you didn't just lose the benefits you would no longer be eligible for but everything was stopped "pending reassessment" you used to be allowed an overlap to allow for time until receiving first pay packet but that help plus other help to get back into work (money to get work clothes, season train tickets etc) has also now gone and wasn't a huge amount anyway. Most recently all that protection/buffer for returning to work has gone. If you're on legacy benefits and go back to work it had better be a permanent job with a reliable employer, because they're quick enough to take benefits off you but VERY slow to reinstate if you become unemployed again. Same if you want to increase hoursX it needs to be a permanent change as you'll wait months for levels to rise again if your hours are dropped

Uc was SUPPOSED to remedy all the problems with legacy benefits

Calendar monthly payments were supposed to make budgeting and moving into work (and being paid calendar monthly) easier.

A flexible payment assessment made each month was meant to make it work better for people in jobs where they worked shifts etc and so weren't getting paid the same every month

The flexible payment assessment was supposed to make it easier for people who worked temp contracts

The idea was that this would remove the disincentive to return to work due to fear of no income

All the benefits "rolled into one" was supposed to make it that claimants and even dwp workers didn't first have to work out which benefit they should be claiming (and possibly claiming the wrong one and being rejected) and reduce the amount of admin needed.

The flexible monthly assessments was supposed to make it easier for people to take overtime or extra hours seasonally without falling foul of breaking the rules or having to cancel claims and then start a new claim when their hours went down again.

I'd rather scrap them both and have a Universal Basic Income system with a new disability benefit run by the NHS that takes into account actual realistic costs of disability

I think that's an excellent idea

Things like the benefit cap, bedroom tax, 2 child limit aren't actually anything to do with UC or how it was intended to work and are misogynistic and punitive measures fuelled by ideology and not actually cost cutting..

These measures need to go!

The "glitches" need fixed - eg it not coping with 2 wages in one payment period

I'm on pip mainly for mh and I'm better off on pip than I was on DLA BUT I probably should have updated my DLA info but was scared to as didn't know I'd be better off and feared being worse off or even it triggering a change to uc

@Tumbleweed101 that's the thing that scares me and I'm sure many others still on legacy benefits - the uncertainty! And there seems to have been so so many cock ups on the uc system I dread being on it!

@MrsGrindah I know people who work in dwp it's not a myth about targets. There's also been conversations recorded on this and reported in the press

@aLilNonnyMouse could you pay up a wheelchair? Pay for it in instalments? Even if that means not getting it until it's fully paid for?

@baroqueandblue myself and others don't and never did consider new labour anything but Tory lite and unfortunately starmer seems to be trying to be Blair 2.0 (and doing a shit job of it!)

Add in a mass council housing build and we'd be heading very much in the right direction.

Absolutely! But as I've said many a time here this won't happen because too many MPs (of all parties) are landlords and property developers or they or their close families have shares in such businesses. These MPs ALWAYS vote against improvements in housing and tenants rights.

@TikTokFinger and for those who are unable to work? The sick, disabled, carers? What are we supposed to do? And even for those that are "just" unemployed how are they supposed to find work when there are not enough jobs? There's been over a million redundancies this year and the tories bang on about wanting people to work yet do nothing for job creation. One way they COULD is a mass social housing construction campaign this would create thousands of jobs but would mean housing costs drop which as landlords and property developers they don't want! They're not even protecting the jobs that were here and are going because of the Brexit fuck up! And do you think being unemployed is a moral failing? I'd be very interested to know your age and life experience (especially given your username) I suspect you've never faced real hardship or life experiences that have made it difficult if not impossible for you to work?

Tory party only look after themselves, their entire history proves that. Unless you are independently wealthy they don't give a shit about you! Unless you are independently wealthy voting Tory is a vote against yourself. And yes what about those who are ALREADY working full time on nmw (and as a society we need those jobs done!) and getting uc to top up their (poor) wages - your ire should be directed at the CEO's and similar level bosses who pay themselves millions plus bonuses and pay the people actually doing the graft a pittance! If people were paid an actual living wage they wouldn't need benefits!

Op UC IS for the "just" unemployed too. They have to sign up to a contract to look for work.

On these sort of threads I am always sure the people arguing against what people on benefits Get have never faced a long period of financial hardship themselves

@GroundAlmonds It isn’t true ! There was a back story about certain individuals but it is not government policy .

@Graphista Sorry but it really isn’t true . I know people too and I’m in the CS. Many many years ago it was true ( although the current system of sanctions didn’t exist) but it is NOT true now. Just like it’s not true that rough sleepers get paid extra benefit if they have a dog, but people still like to trot out that one from time to time too.

@Tumbleweed101

I’m still on the tax credit system and really worried about potentially having to move to UC. Mainly because currently I know exactly how much I am getting each week whereas UC payments seem to fluctuate. I dislike that you can’t have savings with it as this doesn’t help encourage putting money aside for things you might need such as a new car, white goods etc. I don’t like that you have to do work interviews etc if you earn under a certain amount or do part time even though you’re working already and may have other reasons why you have chosen these.

These days TC have your up to date annual pay details as all the systems are linked now so the errors are far fewer than in the early years.

You can save, it's just limited. Up to £6k is completely disregarded. £6k-£16k and it will affect the amount of UC you get. Above £16k and you won't be entitled to UC.

UC payments fluctuate as your income fluctuates, which makes sense. If you earn less you need more UC and vice versa. Under the tax credits system you can end up with big under payments or overpayments by the end of the tax year.

OP, I voted YABU for all the reasons PPs have given. The UC system is better than the tax credits system and the problems with it can be fixed without going back, which would be a colossal waste of taxpayers' money.

And in a similar way, PIP could be improved by improving the assessment process.

Both benefits are too low but could be increased without overhauling them completely.

No but I would vote for a party who intended to reform the new benefits to work better (especially for vulnerable groups and those with disabilities). I would vote for any party who intended to get rid of the benefits cap, too. In a heartbeat. And the 2 child limit.

[quote aLilNonnyMouse]@Oldsu you have to choose between a car and a chair and I need both.

Also r.e savings, motability isn't a "free car", there is a weekly cost and you have to pay a large amount upfront, often £5k +

Some benefits the savings limit is as low as £6k meaning people are not able to save for stuff like this.

For the people trying to give me options, I thank you, and I appreciate the sentiment. But I've spent many many hours researching grants and everything and I fall into a weird crack where I'm too disabled for a manual chair but not considered disabled enough for a powerchair meaning I can't get funding for one and need to buy it myself. I'm on a benefit that limits my savings to £6k and I'd need around £8-9k for something suitable.[/quote]
What benefit are you on? In most cases you can still receive it (just a reduced amount) if your savings go about £6k. If you contacted Citizens Advice they could tell you how your benefits would be affected by going over £6k and do a calculation for you. You might find your benefits are only reduced by a small amount.

One option would be to save £6k and borrow the remaining £2k-£3k if you can. It's crazy that you'd have to do this (instead of saving) but it's a work around.

about above £6k

i would vote for a country that scrapped universal credit and replaced it with nothings only fair way as i get no money from the state in any form out of equality so should everyone else
what do you think of that?

@BedknobsNoBroomsticks

The whole system needs changing. People who are working full time should not need top ups but they do as wages are low compared to cost of living.

I get paid 4 weekly and from what I understand about UC (I am not currently claiming benefits) if I get two wage payments in a month my UC would be cancelled and I would need to apply again. With tax credits it was a yearly average which worked out better.

You understand wrong. You don't have your claim stopped if you get 2 wage payments that month. Your uc claim is adjusted for that month only. That's why UC is better because its paid in "real time" not a yearly average which is then nearly always wrong.

I prefer universal credit to tax credits, no overpayments and im financially better off.
I think it works out better for people in work and the more you work the better off you are.
The childcare element is more generous on uc.
I can afford to save because I work full time and know how to budget.
The system needs improving not scapping.

Universal credit is a disgrace.

My friend lost £3000 in mortgage support (they sanctioned her for 9 months) which is a loan btw already secured on her home because her disabled husband's former employer paid him £6 in error.

I have a child on DLA, no pip experience yet.

I think there needs to be much more support for carers or those who cannot work for health reasons.

But if you work, you should not rely on UC or tax credits. Wages are far too low! auf you work, you should have a decent standard of living with the money you earn.

As long as wages are not tackled, not much will change.

Wages being too low is very subjective though. It depends on the number of hours worked, the skills people have and the outgoings and choices people make. Many make choices they can’t afford and that’s down to the individual not the state or employers.

I'm on universal credit now having previously been on tax credits. I find it good. I like the journal. It's much easier than having to ring tax credits only to be told to hang up and update my issue online (only to find that there isn't an option to update my issue online resulting in me picking up the phone again!).

UC is tough though in getting people into work. They will send you job vacancies several times a day. You will ideally be expected to work full time and travel up to an hour and a half to get to work. If you work less than 16 hours (might be more, I'm not sure), you'll be expected to have regular phone interviews with a work coach. You'll have to tell them everything you're doing to find work. If you don't work at all you're expected to search for work for around 37 hours. They'll want to know which jobs you've applied for and what else you're doing to actively seek work. I work over 16 hours and I'm a student teacher. I'd be scared to work anything less!

Wages being too low is very subjective though

do you know how much NMW is and how much it amounts to for a full time wage? Throw in rent, childcare. Undoable without UC.

Going by my own experience, Universal Credit is a lot better than Tax Credits. No yearly renewals to do, no mistakes and “overpayments”. Just one simple monthly payment.

BUT, I’ve never had to claim for childcare as I don’t currently work. So I might change my tune once I have to do all that.

Can’t say anything for PIP/DLA. My son gets DLA but he’s 7. So he’s got a while before he’d ever have to claim PIP. I’ve heard some bad things about PIP so I think most people would be glad to have DLA back so I’ll go with that.

UC and DLA for me. So a mixture of both. Just please no more tax credits.

The current system could work well. Obviously it doesn't right now, but it could be adjusted so that it does, if there was the political will to do it.

I still receive legacy benefits. I think tax credits works fine if you don’t work, you just receive a weekly amount per child, in a similar way to child benefit. When I was with my ex he worked a job where the hours / pay varied every week based on what overtime was available. Every year we ended up with a big under or over payment, and what we got each week was based on the previous year, not our current circumstances. So I imagine UC could have been better for us. So I think maybe keep it and fix the issues, especially the problems with 4 weekly pay, and scrap punitive sanctions.

I am significantly better off as a working self employed disabled person on tax credits, than I would be on UC.

Its already hard enough to be a working disabled person, when I moved from DLA to PIP I lost a significant amount of money despite actually being less able than I was when I first got DLA, however in case you are unaware, to rock the boat there and ask for MR or go to tribunal does mean you risk losing the LOT and for a LONG time too... i wasnt willing to risk it.

UC is shit for self employed people who might earn loads one week and bugger all the next three months, particularly if that 'loads' is turnover rather than profit and there are heavy outgoings one month that there may not be the next.

But then im a loony lefty who thinks that we should have a universal basic income for all, so I really don't agree with any of the current system!

None of the above.

PIP should be reverted back to DLA, but UC is actually a very good idea in principle. It just needs to be implemented by a party who want it to make the life of people claiming multiple benefits easier, rather than a party who want to use it to reduce the benefit budget.

I wouldn't vote for any party who just said they wanted to reverse something their predecessor did, I want government policy to always be looking to improve on what the current situation is while learning from all past mistakes of any party (moon on a stick, I know).

@WiddlinDiddlin

I am significantly better off as a working self employed disabled person on tax credits, than I would be on UC.

Its already hard enough to be a working disabled person, when I moved from DLA to PIP I lost a significant amount of money despite actually being less able than I was when I first got DLA, however in case you are unaware, to rock the boat there and ask for MR or go to tribunal does mean you risk losing the LOT and for a LONG time too... i wasnt willing to risk it.

UC is shit for self employed people who might earn loads one week and bugger all the next three months, particularly if that 'loads' is turnover rather than profit and there are heavy outgoings one month that there may not be the next.

But then im a loony lefty who thinks that we should have a universal basic income for all, so I really don't agree with any of the current system!

I would vote for universal basic income, my politics are fairly central, but I think it's a fantastic idea that would solve a lot of the issues we currently have due to Covid.