How many people would vote for the party that scrapped Universal Credit & PIP back to a system of Tax Credits and DLA?

[GroundAlmonds]

Of course I knew the new system was bad and punished the poor, sick and disabled, but I’ve just realised quite how regressive this system is and the true depth of the damage it does. Especially now that we are crashing into another dreadful recession?

How many of you would have your vote swayed purely by this issue?

YANBU = I would use my vote to support the return to Tax Credits & DLA

YABU = UC & PIP are fine.

aLilNonnyMouse are you on disability benefits if you are what about this scheme www.motability.co.uk/about/how-the-scheme-works/

@Oldsu you have to choose between a car and a chair and I need both.

Also r.e savings, motability isn't a "free car", there is a weekly cost and you have to pay a large amount upfront, often £5k +

Some benefits the savings limit is as low as £6k meaning people are not able to save for stuff like this.

For the people trying to give me options, I thank you, and I appreciate the sentiment. But I've spent many many hours researching grants and everything and I fall into a weird crack where I'm too disabled for a manual chair but not considered disabled enough for a powerchair meaning I can't get funding for one and need to buy it myself. I'm on a benefit that limits my savings to £6k and I'd need around £8-9k for something suitable.

The idea of sanctions which take away a person's entire income for months at a time, while we're mid- and post-pandemic (with its frighteningly increasing unemployment figures), is morally reprehensible of any government. This lot are cunts, as we know only too well, but would another administration have the justness to do away with sanctions which can only make moral sense in times of full employment based on a buoyant jobs maket? I wouldn't hold my breath, since it was New Labour who introduced them before Ian Duncan Schmitt souped them up with the typical Tory lunatic zeal for deadly social and economic deprivation.

As for PIP - before anyone trots out the usual "it has to be strict to combat fraudulent claims" line:

PIP assessors (so-called health professionals) routinely look at a claimant's supporting evidence from an array of qualified medical professionals and award ZERO points. There is a wealth of both legal and anecdotal evidence to prove that this has all too often been the case over the last 10 years, and many times has caused not just severe hardship and the kind of agonising distress that makes people chronically unwell, but tragically (and criminally) has resulted in numerous suicides among claimants. Effectively, the Department for Work and Pensions finances a hit squad, and it is well-documented that PIP assessors earn a lucrative form of comission that rewards them for dramatically downplaying even the severest of disabilities in many cases. I read a comment recently that sums up the current system: for tens of thousands of sick and disabled people claiming PIP, it's realistic to plan for the process to involve not just a rigorous initial assessment (taxing and often degrading) but also a so-called Mandatory Reconsideration of the assessment provider's decision and an appeal to a tribunal before expecting to receive any benefit. Those who don't have that inhumane and long-winded battle are just lucky. What kind of system for assessing disabled people's financial needs is built on a random variable like luck?!

Welcome to the disability-denying UK in 2020

[quote aLilNonnyMouse]@Oldsu you have to choose between a car and a chair and I need both.

Also r.e savings, motability isn't a "free car", there is a weekly cost and you have to pay a large amount upfront, often £5k +

Some benefits the savings limit is as low as £6k meaning people are not able to save for stuff like this.

For the people trying to give me options, I thank you, and I appreciate the sentiment. But I've spent many many hours researching grants and everything and I fall into a weird crack where I'm too disabled for a manual chair but not considered disabled enough for a powerchair meaning I can't get funding for one and need to buy it myself. I'm on a benefit that limits my savings to £6k and I'd need around £8-9k for something suitable.[/quote]
Thank you for the explanation so sorry you are going through this

[quote MrsGrindah]@GroundAlmonds It’s a complete myth about sanctions targets[/quote]
There was a piece of investigative journalism from The Guardian that uncovered it.

Neither. To replace the UC system would cost millions and take years - when actually all of the issues people have with it (benefit cap, two child limit, 5 week wait etc) can be reformed within the existing UC framework.

Is t tax credits still running in some places? They just need to roll it back.

@aLilNonnyMouse have a look at this trust. I think it’s been set up to address the disastrous situation you describe;

mobilitytrust.org.uk/apply-for-help/

This lot are cunts, as we know only too well, but would another administration have the justness to do away with sanctions which can only make moral sense in times of full employment based on a buoyant jobs maket?

Well you would think Keit Starmer would be looking to set out his stall with something genuinely helpful to the 90% in a recession.

New Labour made various mistakes in the end but their Tax Credits made work out for millions of families and disabled people.

@aLilNonnyMouse

I'd rather scrap them both and have a Universal Basic Income system with a new disability benefit run by the NHS that takes into account actual realistic costs of disability.

This. Add in a mass council housing build and we'd be heading very much in the right direction.

I’m afraid I don’t think the. he could cope with an increased workload.

The NHS^^

YABU. I’m all for people getting jobs and working for a living. Being on the dole should be as shit a life as possible to discourage it. (Tory voter here)

And, the disability 'assessments' brought in by the Blair government, and conducted by private companies paid huge sums by the taxpayer, are probably easier for a fraudster than a genuine claimant.

The minority of fake claimants aren't ill or disabled - and therefore have the ability and energy to focus on writing, doing, and saying the 'right' things.

The vast majority of claims are genuine yet people are put through hell trying to get much needed and deserved support.

The irony is the immense stress pushes some people from temporary illness into long-term disability.

That there's a requirement for assessments at all suggests that the government thinks doctors are liars or incompetent.

@TikTokFinger

YABU. I’m all for people getting jobs and working for a living. Being on the dole should be as shit a life as possible to discourage it. (Tory voter here)

Well you should probably stick to commenting on what you understand, then.

Neither TC nor UC are for the unemployed and DLA & PIP are disability payments with no reference to income whatsoever.

That’s interesting @SheepandCow I hadn’t thought of that.

This lot are cunts

They lack the warmth and depth needed...

I’m all for people getting jobs and working for a living. Being on the dole should be as shit a life as possible to discourage it.

The majority of UC claimants are in employment and UC tops up their wages.

For those who are out of work, are the unemployed not entitled to basic dignity then?

@TikTokFinger

YABU. I’m all for people getting jobs and working for a living. Being on the dole should be as shit a life as possible to discourage it. (Tory voter here)

Or alternatively, instead of kicking people when they're down, we could implement positive discrimination so that applicants with the necessary experience and skills for a vacant role are prioritised for interviews.

And, as the majority of claimants are working but on low wages, we ensure people are paid a living wages with decent working conditions - and they should have access to stable affordable housing.

Oh - and people too ill or disabled to work should be able to claim disability benefits without being treated like criminals or pushed to suicide.

I agree with @SheepandCow, the welfare system should be about helping people up not pushing them down.

@DrCoconut

What tumbleweed said. Also allowing savings promotes independence long term as people can save a deposit for a home which then gives an incentive to work more to be able to secure a mortgage. Long term there are no housing costs to be paid in old age and the person pays more tax/claims less help in their younger life too. And finally it helps with care costs if needed (I know that is controversial and a bit of a separate issue). It allows people who need specific equipment such as a pp on here to have the dignity of being able to buy the items and have a better life. It allows children to have a boost at uni or other training which reduces the likelihood of benefit dependency later on. The list goes on. I'm not saying people with lottery wins in the bank should get UC but there needs to be a more reasonable cut off.

Sorry but you have to realise that there are 1000s of people who don't have 16k savings (the cut off for UC) and don't claim benefits , why should they have their taxes used for provide people with tax free benefits who have more savings then they have, 1000s of people who don't/can't claim would like to be able to secure a mortgage but cant, 1000s of them would like to support their children going to uni but can't. Yes before anyone says it people on UC pay tax if they work as well (and earn over the threshold) but NOT on their U.C or TC that money comes from everyone's tax contributions.

They lack the warmth and depth needed...

@GroundAlmonds

That’s interesting *@SheepandCow* I hadn’t thought of that.

Applying for benefits especially disability has become a (rather demanding) job in itself. When someone's ill or disabled, it's often not something they can really manage.

It's almost as if the system was set up by people used to making lots of claims from taxpayer money... MP expenses ...

I think there's always going to be a tiny minority of people who 'play the system' - any system. But then generally these aren't people most would want as an employee or colleague.

If they'd really prefer to spend all their time trying to claim what's a very small amount of money to live on, that's actually rather sad and hardly a life to envy.

The irony is the immense stress pushes some people from temporary illness into long-term disability.

This is precisely what happened to me. The stress triggered a moderate physical disability into a severe and crippling one that hasn't improved over the past 6 years. They permanently destroyed my health. The irony being I am now entitled to much higher rates of PIP and am costing them more money. That thought doesn't improve my life or undo any of the damage they caused though does it

I agree with others, UC needs to be "updated" rather than scrapped.
As for savings, I think, if you are in receipt of benefits, and you are actually able to save, then it is to much. Why should the taxpayer help people to accumulate wealth?
However, if your saving is from other non benefits related income, people should be able to have these savings, say up to 25k which is the national annual income.
As for people with disabilities, there should be a better financial support system with a guaranteed income according to area and needs. They should not be included in any caps.

@Ylvamoon

I agree with others, UC needs to be "updated" rather than scrapped. As for savings, I think, if you are in receipt of benefits, and you are actually able to save, then it is to much. Why should the taxpayer help people to accumulate wealth? However, if your saving is from other non benefits related income, people should be able to have these savings, say up to 25k which is the national annual income. As for people with disabilities, there should be a better financial support system with a guaranteed income according to area and needs. They should not be included in any caps.

What other type of non benefit income are you talking about, there is no way I would want to pay someone with 25k savings tax free benefits when I am paying full tax on all my income and haven't got that amount in savings, that would be unacceptable - sorrry

However, if your saving is from other non benefits related income, people should be able to have these savings, say up to 25k which is the national annual income.

What? “Income” such as inheritances? Convenient for some.