AIBU to think the Catholic Church should take itself off?

[HolyMalign]

My daddy grew up in a Catholic institution.

I was born in the 70s and we didn't talk about things. I went to church every week, I prayed, I did what you did. But I had a pretty ropey home life and I hated my daddy for it.

It was only when I was an adult that I realised what his childhood was like and why he was so messed up. So I understand, but it's affected me. And it's certainly affected my daddy.

In the last few years I've been following women who have uncovered even more terrible things that the church did, even worse than would have happened to my daddy. Babies in sewers and mass graves. It is disgusting.

But still these fuckers tell people what to do and have such a hold on their lives.

My daddy is in his seventies now and won't have a word said against the church that fucked him over. There must be so many people like him. It's brainwashing. The church has done nothing for him but abuse him and cause him misery and he is not alone. There are millions of other former children and living women out there who have similarly suffered.

Why do we let these people have such power still when we now know they are abusive rapist murderers?

People will often use charity in the 3rd world to justify religion, but a lot of that charity is secular and doesn't come with conditions. For a church it's about recruiting/advertising even though many of the congregation may have donated purely to help.

I think we can safely say that if the church disappeared the people in it who currently donate would still do so so the church itself is a drain on that not a help.

It's not so much that Catholics don't use contraception, it's that some don't acknowledge it as a necessity or teach their kids about it. Not just Catholics that just my sphere of experience, but there's an awful habit of just not talking about it. And the official line of 'it's bad'.

@LastTrainEast

People will often use charity in the 3rd world to justify religion, but a lot of that charity is secular and doesn't come with conditions. For a church it's about recruiting/advertising even though many of the congregation may have donated purely to help.

I think we can safely say that if the church disappeared the people in it who currently donate would still do so so the church itself is a drain on that not a help.

There are massive donations to the likes of the Toy Show (in Ireland) and the British equivalent, the name of which escapes me atm, apologies. So charity isn't necessarily linked to religion. I think people will be charitable anyway, we only have to imagine ourselves to be in the same position and we'll generally put our hand.s in our pockets if circumstances allow.

@lasttraineast I really need to learn to read the whole post!

@HollyCarrot

It's not so much that Catholics don't use contraception, it's that some don't acknowledge it as a necessity or teach their kids about it. Not just Catholics that just my sphere of experience, but there's an awful habit of just not talking about it. And the official line of 'it's bad'.

The only Catholics under the age of 75 I know who have any attitudes towards contraception that would in any way distinguish them from people of any faith or none are converts.

They still won't teach Darwin or the big bang theory, which let's face it puts the children at a huge disadvantage.
That's strange @MaddeningtheUnhelpful. My Catholic school always made a big thing about the fact the scientist known as Godfather of Big Bang Theory was a Catholic priest.

And Catholic schools still have to teach the curriculum.

@kleinblue fair enough in your experience but isn't the teaching still that contraception is wrong? I haven't been to mass since my last funeral so I could be wrong of course.

@LastTrainEast

People will often use charity in the 3rd world to justify religion, but a lot of that charity is secular and doesn't come with conditions. For a church it's about recruiting/advertising even though many of the congregation may have donated purely to help.

I think we can safely say that if the church disappeared the people in it who currently donate would still do so so the church itself is a drain on that not a help.

That’s a pretty thin definition of ‘charity’, if you see it as only/mostly about rich people in developed countries donating to poor people in developing countries. Most of the Catholic church now is in Africa and South and Central America. Most charitable work is smaller scale and being done within countries and communities, not advertising campaigns being imposed from outside.

‘Charity’ is Joan Smith of Tunbridge Wells putting £2.50 in a collection tin. ‘Charity’ is also Oscar Romero of El Salvador using his platform as an Archbishop to campaign against political oppression and campaign for a preferential option for the poor. I suppose you could make a case that if all religious charities disappeared tomorrow then Joan would just put her £2.50 in a different collection tin without much interruption, but you couldn’t really detach the religious beliefs of someone like Oscar Romero from his activism.

Anyway, I am Catholic so little point in getting into much of a discussion about this. I do think there’s a decent discussion to be had about why people might still choose to be part of a Church that’s been behind absolute atrocities, but it’s clear that most posters see Catholics as either monsters or brainwashed victims, and you can’t have a decent discussion with either a monster or a brainwashed victim so, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, babies in sewers and mass graves? I haven’t heard about these things, surely there are police investigations going on?

I’m guessing the Irish mother-and-baby homes, ShirleyShirleyShirley

@GoldenOmber I dont know how I missed this, just looked it up, how utterly shocking

Unfortunately they still operate on outdated and damaging ethics. My children go to a Catholic school, in a rural naice village in England. They still refuse to teach about contraception, when let's face it a baby is the NICEST thing you can catch. They still won't teach Darwin or the big bang theory, which let's face it puts the children at a huge disadvantage. Could you imagine GCSE science?

This is odd. I went to Catholic schools, primary and secondary. We had 'neutral' sex education every year starting from Y6 in primary school. We were taught about contraception. The only time we spoke about the Catholic beliefs surrounding it was in RE. I even remember doing an essay about the pros and cons of abortion in English, coming to the conclusion that I was pro abortion and got an A. Our science lessons were taught from a scientific point of view, not biblical. And this was in the 80's/early 90's.

If you're not happy with the teachings of a religion and it's bleeding into lessons where it shouldn't be, I'd be taking my kids out the school, however rural I lived. I didn't send my kids to Catholic schools, as I don't practice the religion anymore for all the reasons stated on this thread (not that I ever did really, as it was my mother who forced me to go to church).

@HollyCarrot

It's not so much that Catholics don't use contraception, it's that some don't acknowledge it as a necessity or teach their kids about it. Not just Catholics that just my sphere of experience, but there's an awful habit of just not talking about it. And the official line of 'it's bad'.

Funny how Italy has one of the lowest birth rates and highest incidences of only-child families in the world, isn't it? Must be that contraception advice they receive in school from their sex education teachers, who is often (because it falls under Civic Education) their RE teacher.

I do agree with the wealth thing fwiw. There was a very interesting article (in Time) I think about Mother Teresa and the millions and millions she managed to get out of world leaders and entrepreneurs. Which went straight to the Vatican. And where it all went from there nobody knows, but if course until the current Pope and his Clarks brogues they all had handmade leather slippers etc.

I also remember reading (it was after the Manchester IRA bombings- owners of land on which destroyed buildings stood) that the Church of England is (or was) the largest landowner in England. I wonder if that's still true?

@thesilentstars all learning about contraception I had to do myself. I vividly remember in biology in school when being told about sexual intercourse, the teacher actually went as far as to say "when people are married". And she wasn't even a nun!

Blimey.
It's interesting though, isn't it? That it seems to be the Catholic Church outwith Italy that is more traditional. I'm in the south of Italy (not Catholic)
I did complain about dd's RE teacher last year- she was a supply teacher as her usual teacher (male, gay, lives with his partner) had an op. She was a racist pig and just kept ranting about foreigners diluting Catholic blood.

The Church is completely different in different countries ime as it absorbs local flavour/history to a greater or lesser extent and also as its activities are dictated by political expediency. Eg in some parts of the world priests are ok to pretty much marry (which I agree with pps at least addresses some of the problems).

Btw I do know that other institutions and particularly religious institutions protect abusers, but I'm just talking about what I know because this is the one I'm familiar with. I've done a big turnaround from when I was a girl and thought the church imparted universal truths while my daddy was an angry enemy to seeing him as a survivor of a terrible system that doesn't give me truth.

And if it were just a question of, like pps have shared, the Church just being an organisation that provided a space for community, comfort and succour, ofc it's ok to do that. But it isn't. It utilises mass amounts of people's need for this and allows them to give over their personal experience of faith and love within its bounds in order to wield huge amounts of political, social and financial power up to and including the point of abuse.

I also do not think that any organisation that allows abuse on such a large scale should have any input into policies around welfare, society or education.

@TheSilentStars

Blimey. It's interesting though, isn't it? That it seems to be the Catholic Church outwith Italy that is more traditional. I'm in the south of Italy (not Catholic) I did complain about dd's RE teacher last year- she was a supply teacher as her usual teacher (male, gay, lives with his partner) had an op. She was a racist pig and just kept ranting about foreigners diluting Catholic blood.

that's horrific!

OP I am so truly sorry your experience, and your fathers, was so awful and totally respect your decision to not want to be part of the religion. I can’t say how I would feel if I were in your position, maybe the same as you

But I still maintain my opinion that the church shouldn’t have to “take itself off”.

My own personal experience with the nuns and priests that I have known has always been positive and beneficial to me. Also, a very close family friend, in Italy, was orphaned at a very young age and had no other family. She lived with nuns in a convent until she was married. She often spoke of how she was fed, clothed, educated and more importantly loved. She stayed in touch with the nuns she loved so dearly till they died.

I am not trying to convince you to change your mind as I totally understand your family’s experience, along with so many others, was unfortunately not a good one. I can understand why you don’t want to be associated with it.

But to many others the experience is so positive and isn’t something they would want “taking itself off”.

Agree entirely OP

Unfortunately they still operate on outdated and damaging ethics. My children go to a Catholic school, in a rural naice village in England. They still refuse to teach about contraception, when let's face it a baby is the NICEST thing you can catch. They still won't teach Darwin or the big bang theory, which let's face it puts the children at a huge disadvantage

This sounds like a very odd Catholic school. They have to follow the NC, so sounds very odd.

@101jobs

OP I am so truly sorry your experience, and your fathers, was so awful and totally respect your decision to not want to be part of the religion. I can’t say how I would feel if I were in your position, maybe the same as you

But I still maintain my opinion that the church shouldn’t have to “take itself off”.

My own personal experience with the nuns and priests that I have known has always been positive and beneficial to me. Also, a very close family friend, in Italy, was orphaned at a very young age and had no other family. She lived with nuns in a convent until she was married. She often spoke of how she was fed, clothed, educated and more importantly loved. She stayed in touch with the nuns she loved so dearly till they died.

I am not trying to convince you to change your mind as I totally understand your family’s experience, along with so many others, was unfortunately not a good one. I can understand why you don’t want to be associated with it.

But to many others the experience is so positive and isn’t something they would want “taking itself off”.

While your personal experience was positiv (thankfully), there are loads of people who have been damaged by the church. So it's reasonable enough that there are people out there who want to see the back of them.

@HollyCarrot I agree that the bad stuff is so depraved I don’t think it can be cancelled out by the good.

However, my view is that until we have an infrastructure in all societies la does what the church does in the laces not does it , it will continue. We need to find ways to bring the community and collectivism to places that need it and I do believe we are slowly getting there.