AIBU to think the Catholic Church should take itself off?

[HolyMalign]

My daddy grew up in a Catholic institution.

I was born in the 70s and we didn't talk about things. I went to church every week, I prayed, I did what you did. But I had a pretty ropey home life and I hated my daddy for it.

It was only when I was an adult that I realised what his childhood was like and why he was so messed up. So I understand, but it's affected me. And it's certainly affected my daddy.

In the last few years I've been following women who have uncovered even more terrible things that the church did, even worse than would have happened to my daddy. Babies in sewers and mass graves. It is disgusting.

But still these fuckers tell people what to do and have such a hold on their lives.

My daddy is in his seventies now and won't have a word said against the church that fucked him over. There must be so many people like him. It's brainwashing. The church has done nothing for him but abuse him and cause him misery and he is not alone. There are millions of other former children and living women out there who have similarly suffered.

Why do we let these people have such power still when we now know they are abusive rapist murderers?

Yes op I agree. I was raised Catholic and even dm felt cheated when she saw the sheer Wealth of the Vatican. I'm sure the scales would fall from the eyes if people learned more about the history of popes etc..
It's all an utter load of nonsense.... Thankfully more people are moving away from it, I can't even bear the school church and watch the most awful mums walking up to the communion with such a pious holier than thou face! They have no compulsion to push, manipulate, weadle, brown nose the head to get the best for their families... Etc etc ect.

So many horror stories but the stops on religion for me in the Catholic Church and as a Catholic at those times, what really stuck in my heart was the defensiveness of other catholics.. That their dear religion might be criticised.

I like the story of jesus, there are wondeful moral lessons in the bible, I cling to the nativity story of the humility of jesus birth in a world of money and wealth and consumerism... Many people get support from the community that the church provides.
However I can no longer associate with the religion at all.

Most religions are, the only ones that seem truly peaceful are sikism and buhdism? I could be wrong but we never hear about anyone being mutilated or abused at any age or time by those regions?

Ohtherewearethen. Your right the church does have responsability, hence getting police and ss involved. (If the church has failed to fulfill that responsability.). Otherwise what do we do, say oh well thats the church for you??

Hindu,s not abusing??? Ever seen Slumdog Millionare? Do you know about Indian history? Are you aware of the abuses going on in India at the moment? But again I would never say all Hindu,s are abusers.

OP, at the risk of sounding trite, it sounds as though your father has used his faith to forgive and move on.

I watched a documentary about the Holocaust and what was extraordinary to me was how one Jewish woman was able to call on her faith to forgive those soldiers who killed her family. I talked to a Jewish woman at a Holocaust commemorative event and mentioned how in awe I was of this woman. She said to me that she too had similar experiences and was advised to seek forgiveness. She was very glad she had done so, she said as she was able to go on and meet someone, have a family of her own and was now a grandparent. She lived by the belief that living well and fully was the best revenge and that no one had the right to take away her enjoyment of life - and no one had.

Forgiveness is the major principle behind most religions and I think the phrase I have heard that sums it up well for me is that when you are angry at someone you have pain- if you hold onto your pain and get mad or angrier you are allowing that person to continue to have power over you when you need to assert your own authority over your emotions.

It sounds contradictory but I believe it works. My issue is that it feels as though such people get away with the pain they cause in life but deep down I don’t really think they do. At the time I felt most angry, I had lost my ability to connect with all the great things in life- your father has found a way to find beauty nd happiness in this world despite what happened to him (which is only one aspect of his life). How fantastic is he.

But I do understand your anger and shared it for a long time. I felt I wanted to cut out the RC part of me. I studied Judaism/Cof E in order to try and find something else. Ultimately, they all pivot around strategies for managing your emotional self and ironically all advise the same stuff.

To the poster who said it is worst because it’s RC, you sound to me as those your issue is with RC - abuse is abuse and it is done by people who we know hide behind any front they can. Church should never have covered it up - neither should the CofI, Hasidic Jewish community in US, Amish in US, etc, etc.

@grosspointisland

I can't take any adult seriously when they call a parent daddy 🙄

What a rude and pointless comment.

grosspointisland

I can't take any adult seriously when they call a parent daddy 🙄
......
I thought that too when I read the opening post; 'daddy' was used not once but twice. Most odd.

Even if someone calls their parent, "Daddy", they don't write about them as such, they would say, "My father".

[quote Ohtherewearethen]@GoldenOmber - stop the brainwashing disguised as 'good works' in developing countries for a start. And the guilt that the church relies on its congregation feeling. Reduce the power that priests have. It won't happen over night of course but the sooner this poisonous, shameful organisation fades into irrelevance the better.[/quote]
I don't think many Catholics would support abandoning all charitable efforts in developing countries, however strongly you might believe it's all malicious brainwashing. And there are plenty of Catholics in developing countries - what should be done with them? Re-education facilities?

Reduce the power that priests have

I entirely agree, but this is already happening - a general shift in power towards the laity, ever since Vatican II.

@Ohtherewearethen

What happens to the people those charities help?

I would like to suggest something to you.

In a poor, underdeveloped country with a hostile environment in some regions (tsunamis, earthquakes). A disease like Ebola has weakened the resources of the community there. Rebel factions fight for territory fuelled by international money. The people in the region are poor, uneducated people. To put the army in to create stability would be costly and a short term solution due to the national debt of the country. The giver cannot be seen to put funds in to protect these people at the risk of introducing instability elsewhere. The church, in this instance, represents something neutral- it is not concerned with the domestic politics of the place but focused instead on healthcare, maternity support, irrigation, supplies- rebuilding a bridge destroyed in a storm that will enable villagers to access the main road to the city. If another disease, such as cholera hits, it will devastate the whole region and leave the land free from guerilla fighters from a neighbouring country who are primed to do a land grab. The poor community in this scenario are collateral damage- it is logistically acceptable to allow them to die off - they contribute nothing to the gdp, always need support and will take several generations to get the independence they need (through education, jobs, infrastructure).

Do we just not try? Where are you and your family on a scale like this? Most of us would be collateral damage but we have built a sufficient economy that allows us to think differently.

A core belief in all faiths is the uniqueness of each individual and their god given right to exist. This works by putting accountability and a record in place for any dictator (Milosevic, for example) who seeks to eradicate a community because they are inconvenient. Faiths also connect the geographically isolated poor with the stable communities (Ethiopian Jews able to go to Israel, etc Angolan Jews during the civil war). Religion, in my view was created to serve a purpose and its power lies in its very abstraction. The RC churches in London are full of African people now - people who understand the politics of systems and resources.

Perhaps the moral arc that Dr King talked off is the thing that religion has tied into - in order to ensure that it is distributed equally. Catholic after all does mean universal.

It’s just a thought.

Not really sure what “take off” means in this thread.
I’m from Poland and read what’s happening here.
Women are protesting since October when nearly total abortion ban was implemented.
They are protesting against patriarchy that has Catholic Church deeply enmeshed with the government who is quite loud in claiming women are incubators

OP you are entitled to your opinion, as are the people who agree with you. However, to say the Catholic Church should “take itself off” is an entirely unfair comment.

There are many Catholics around the world who have, and are entitled to, their faith.

For the church to just take itself off would be wrong and punish all catholics. Why punish all Catholics because of the wrong doings of some? Those who want nothing to do with it need not attend mass or believe in it.

@FrenchBoule

Not really sure what “take off” means in this thread. I’m from Poland and read what’s happening here. Women are protesting since October when nearly total abortion ban was implemented. They are protesting against patriarchy that has Catholic Church deeply enmeshed with the government who is quite loud in claiming women are incubators

I think people underestimate the effect the abortion debate has. People in Britain take abortion for granted, but in Ireland it's relatively new. And it took hard work to get the referendum passed. I had a mental breakdown because of it. I could never be part of a church that felt it could control my reproductive choices.

It isn’t just the RC Church. My DSis and I were sexually abused by our F, who was protected by certain individuals within the conservative evangelical church where we grew up. I was also abused at the private convent girls’ school I went to, by the priest who was school chaplain.

I was really angered recently to find out that some evangelical churches are still protecting sexual predators. A friend of mine was told by her church pastor that she shouldn’t report her H for sexually abusing her teenage DD, as it would ‘bring shame on the church.’ He also said that it was her fault for not being a ‘good wife’.

I am a Christian, despite all this. It was people within the church who are to blame for this, and they’re the ones who need to take responsibility for it and put their house in order. At some point I would very much like to name and shame them, but my mental health isn’t great right now.

Most churches do take child safeguarding seriously, and do DBS checks of children’s workers. I’ve seen nothing at our current church that gives me cause for concern. (If I did, I really wouldn’t ignore it, as I would never want to say nothing when I knew children were at risk. I also have two DDs myself.)

It’s more of an issue at free conservative evangelical churches, because there are no checks and balances within a formal church structure.

I appreciate your anger, OP, what your DF and others went through was absolutely appalling. But it’s for him, and every victim, to find their own way to come to terms with what they went through.

@Mittens030869

It isn’t just the RC Church. My DSis and I were sexually abused by our F, who was protected by certain individuals within the conservative evangelical church where we grew up. I was also abused at the private convent girls’ school I went to, by the priest who was school chaplain.

I was really angered recently to find out that some evangelical churches are still protecting sexual predators. A friend of mine was told by her church pastor that she shouldn’t report her H for sexually abusing her teenage DD, as it would ‘bring shame on the church.’ He also said that it was her fault for not being a ‘good wife’.

I am a Christian, despite all this. It was people within the church who are to blame for this, and they’re the ones who need to take responsibility for it and put their house in order. At some point I would very much like to name and shame them, but my mental health isn’t great right now.

Most churches do take child safeguarding seriously, and do DBS checks of children’s workers. I’ve seen nothing at our current church that gives me cause for concern. (If I did, I really wouldn’t ignore it, as I would never want to say nothing when I knew children were at risk. I also have two DDs myself.)

It’s more of an issue at free conservative evangelical churches, because there are no checks and balances within a formal church structure.

I appreciate your anger, OP, what your DF and others went through was absolutely appalling. But it’s for him, and every victim, to find their own way to come to terms with what they went through.

I really hope your MH improves soon (fellow sufferer here). Can I very gently say that I don't quite agree that it's more of an issue with small churches. There have been massive abuses and subsequent cover ups by the Catholic church in Ireland. Abuse of kids, babies taken away from mother's. And they covered for abusers with the result that more children were abused. And kept that up for a long time, dragging out the suffering for the surviving victims. Our state allowed it but the church behaved abominably in the years since. We are still discovering things now (as a country) that were covered up.

@HollyCarrot

I know that. I went to a convent school and was sexually abused by the school chaplain. Actually, my DSis and I both gave birth to babies; my baby died and my DSis believes that her baby was illegally adopted. The nuns took care of everything.

My point really was that there is more of a chance of challenging individual church leaders when there is a formal church structure. In a free church there is no one to turn to if the church leadership don't want to know.

I'm really sorry for what you went through as well, it's a long road, isn't it?

[quote Mittens030869]@HollyCarrot

I know that. I went to a convent school and was sexually abused by the school chaplain. Actually, my DSis and I both gave birth to babies; my baby died and my DSis believes that her baby was illegally adopted. The nuns took care of everything.

My point really was that there is more of a chance of challenging individual church leaders when there is a formal church structure. In a free church there is no one to turn to if the church leadership don't want to know.
[/quote]
Mittens I'm so sorry x I hope you're doing well now. I don't mean to intrude on anyone's personal experience.

@HollyCarrot

Thank you for your kind words. I have built a life for myself with a lovely DH and two adopted DDs of 11 and 9. My DSis is also happily married with three DC. So we're doing well, coping with long-term MH issues but we support each other. We've both had extensive therapy.

[quote Mittens030869]@HollyCarrot

Thank you for your kind words. I have built a life for myself with a lovely DH and two adopted DDs of 11 and 9. My DSis is also happily married with three DC. So we're doing well, coping with long-term MH issues but we support each other. We've both had extensive therapy.
[/quote]
I don't want to be too forward but you sound wonderful and so strong. If I was wearing a hat I would doff it to you and your husband. All the very best to you and your kids. Have a great Christmas x

@HollyCarrot

That's very kind, thank you. It will be a challenging time, as it will be for so many families across the country.

Happy Christmas to you, too.

[quote Mittens030869]@HollyCarrot

That's very kind, thank you. It will be a challenging time, as it will be for so many families across the country.

Happy Christmas to you, too. [/quote]
Thanks. We have Santa sorted at least and everything else can be half arsed

YABU and I say this as an agnostic who was not raised with any religion.

YABU for singling out the catholic church- I think you'll find that all closed groups and institutions, including all religions, have shady goings on in them.

YABU for thinking that rather than have reforms and hold individuals accountable, you would rather dismantle an organisation that brings a lot of people comfort and is deeply tied to their faith.

@MaddeningtheUnhelpful

Unfortunately they still operate on outdated and damaging ethics. My children go to a Catholic school, in a rural naice village in England. They still refuse to teach about contraception, when let's face it a baby is the NICEST thing you can catch. They still won't teach Darwin or the big bang theory, which let's face it puts the children at a huge disadvantage. Could you imagine GCSE science? Can imagine 'god created earth in 7 days' is a massive fail! There are so many families who have 7+ children that struggle, I totally understand someone's right to have that many children if they can accomodate and afford it that's not the issue. The issue is on the playground these are families crammed into 3 bedroom council houses, on the breadline, regularly late for pick ups for 3/4 children because the younger 3/4 are tired, cranky, asleep or whatever reason. These issues are totally glossed over by staff because of the religion. I've recently had a conversation with one such mother and everything she said about her life was negative! She's skint, no one has any room to breath, she doesn't get quality time with them, the eldest have to tend to little ones/cook/clean and in the next breath was offended when a doctor offered contraception...

I don’t think this in any way typical. I’m an atheist who is vocally critical of the Catholic Church — I live next door to the ruins of a Magdalene laundry, and I knew some of the last inmates, none of whom would hear a word against the nuns — but I was certainly taught evolution and standard secular scientific theories for the origins of the universe at my convent schools in the 70s and 80s, and the only time I’ve come across Biblical literalism in education was when my son attended a C of E village primary attached to a parish with an evangelical vicar between 2016 and 2019.

And even in the 70s, in a devoutly Catholic society, families of 7 or 8 children were unusual at my Catholic schools in a WC area. I don’t know any Catholic practising now who does not use contraception.

Which makes me wonder where on earth you are.