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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if anyone here still thinks Brexit is a good idea?

628 replies

Sundiamond · 28/11/2020 08:26

There was a time when the board was alive with argument around Brexit.

Does anyone still believe that Brexit is a good move and we, as a country, will gain more than we will lose?

OP posts:
MacbookHo · 29/11/2020 11:50

@PolkadotGiraffe

Ask yourself why you think they did that?

I honestly don’t know!

Cui bono?

I also don’t know what this means.

Anyone who hasn't worked it out by now is a bit thick.

I’m definitely a bit thick because I have no idea why they didn’t postpone it. Why didn’t they?

MacbookHo · 29/11/2020 11:53

Ok I googled “Cui bono”. “Who benefits?” But I don’t know how it why the government benefit from Brexit. Is this the Disaster Capitalism thing again? I also don’t understand that.

Littleideasbigbook · 29/11/2020 12:19

I have just read the entire thread. I am well educated, currently studying for a PhD and I am an employed health researcher. To give you context of my ability to pick up themes and be able to summarise key points.

Not one positive. I have not been able to pick out one concrete positive from nine pages. Crazy. I really wish it was different after nearly 5 years. Hopefully the list of benefits will start soon.

ArabellaScott · 29/11/2020 12:36

If you really don’t know there was a flag then you’re not in a position to call leavers ignorant.

At no point have I called leavers ignorant. Nor would I. Ah, the blue one with the stars, okay, fair enough. I have a very poor memory. Still didn't know there was an anthem, though. I really hate flags of all kinds, fwiw.

Checkyourvoicemail · 29/11/2020 12:37

@KenDodd I suspect they don't talk about Brexit to me because I don't agree with them. Plus I honestly don't think they expected the referendum to go their way and now see what they actually voted for...

OrchardBlossom · 29/11/2020 13:11

I haven’t commented on a single Brexit post on here as I think people are very rude and judgemental of people who didn’t vote their way. I would like to make this clear at the start that I am not racist, I am not stupid, I did not support Trump and I wasn’t born during the ‘golden age of the empire.’

I voted Brexit and I would again.

The EU costs the UK money, the most recent statistics I can find are from 2018 when we contributed 20 billion with a return of 11 billion. Yes, the EU has provided grants for the regeneration of cities, agriculture etc, but if we hadn’t paid the EU 20 billion pounds, we could have ‘cut out the middle man.’

Some of the countries in the EU are a financial risk. An example of this is Greece with the major problems it had with the recession of 2008. As part of the EU, we were at risk of being drawn in to help out when countries were struggling. That would have cost us more money. I do think, to control this further, the EU would have drawn us in to the euro currency, which would have put us at more risk financially.

Student finance – EU students are eligible for student loans from Student Finance England/Wales/NI or the Student Awards Agency Scotland, and pay the same tuition fee as UK students. International students pay a much higher fee. Whilst this is great that people want to come here and study, EU students (and our home students) are going to be less financially appealing to universities. The benefit of a home student is that they will, hopefully, stay in the UK and use their degree here, either to support the country, either practically (medicine/dentistry/engineering) or financially, by taking better paid jobs. EU students, who can apply to study here relatively easily and cheaply, can head straight back to their own home countries, having had the benefit of capped tuition fees and student finance. International students have to jump through more hoops in order to study here.

NHS – the latest figures I can find relating to health tourism in the UK are from a BMJ article from 2018 and which looked at a study in 2017. Health tourism does happen, the costs aren’t huge but it does occur. – in the small study they undertook, 50 of the 8894 people treated were ineligible for NHS treatment. Estimates of the cost vary widely between 350 million and two billion pounds annually. This isn’t a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. However, an elective bowel resection, for instance, costs just under twenty thousand (excluding the cost of any readmissions and further treatment to treat the underlying cause, ie chemo or radiotherapy), so even a saving of 350 million would mean we have the available funds to pay for seventeen and a half thousand major operations per year. This is nothing to do with the 350 million weekly that is talked about – I do not, and have never believed the NHS would get given 350 million pounds a week). This is an annual cost and is just highlighting what the money spent on health tourism annually could actually cover for those people eligible for NHS treatment.

Furthering on from health tourism, when people come to the UK from overseas, there are generally requirements about the person’s English language ability (I know there will be exceptions eg asylum seekers). People from the EU do not have to meet this requirement due to the freedom of movement. I am going to be honest here and say I know how the NHS works but do not know about other government bodies. The NHS bears the cost of interpreters when needed for appointments. We are not meant to use friends or family members to interpret, as we do not know that they are interpreting correctly, either because they can’t or because they have ulterior motives, and have to arrange interpreters. These are costly for the NHS (if I remember rightly, the cost for a two-hour appointment (I work somewhere where the appointments are long) for an interpreter for one patient was something like two hundred and fifty pounds. That was the invoice we received, including travel time for the interpreter. I believe there were no agency fees paid on that as it was via the government translation service). Again, two hundred and fifty pounds is nothing, really. But the cumulative cost of this must be substantial. And I know not all people from outside of the EU will have a level of English good enough for a health appointment, but the numbers of people needing a translator (in my experience) are fewer. As I said, I only know how the NHS works but assume it must be a similar set-up in other government organisations.

I am sure there are other reasons people voted to leave the EU, but these are my reasons and I continue to believe they are important.

ArabellaScott · 29/11/2020 13:49

Thanks, Orchard, those are all things worth discussing. I'm sorry people have been rude; I really try not to be.

So the benefits here that you see are - less money going to the EU.

Students not coming and taking out loans.

And the NHS not paying for health tourism.

PolkadotGiraffe · 29/11/2020 14:06

[quote MacbookHo]@PolkadotGiraffe

Ask yourself why you think they did that?

I honestly don’t know!

Cui bono?

I also don’t know what this means.

Anyone who hasn't worked it out by now is a bit thick.

I’m definitely a bit thick because I have no idea why they didn’t postpone it. Why didn’t they?[/quote]
Yes. Disaster capitalists. Chaos means that they and their rich donors can make an absolute fortune. The opportunity to undercut European standards and rights that protect normal people, likewise. Many have already made millions betting against GBP and UK business, buying up distressed businesses for a pittance etc. People like John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Rushi Sunak is married to the daughter of a billionaire. Do you think that these people do not consider their own interests and investments when deciding policy? Jacob Rees-Mogg's father even wrote a book about how to get rich from disaster capitalism for goodness sake!

You only have to look at who funded the Leave campaign to understand that it was not done for the benefit of normal people. I am amazed anyone would think that this club of millionaires and billionaires would be deeply concerned for the "plebs", as they see us.

They didn't postpone it because they do not care if it makes normal people poorer. In fact the entire idea is to do that, and so that we lose our rights to FOM so that we have to put up with the increasingly worse conditions here and they can make even more profit. They don't care if you can't buy fresh vegetables or get medicine because they will be fine. They also want to hide the impact of Brexit behind the impact of Coronavirus so that they can try to pretend it's not their fault, and they know that a large number of people are gullible enough to believe it.

PolkadotGiraffe · 29/11/2020 14:07

Here is the book.

AIBU to ask if anyone here still thinks Brexit is a good idea?
Andante57 · 29/11/2020 14:09

I’ve read a lot on the Brexit threads about the lies of the Leave campaign.
However a remain journalist, Carole Cadwalladr, has also been telling lies. She claimed that Aaron Banks received large sums of money and help from Russia for the Leave campaign.
Newspapers such as the Guardian and the Observer printed these accusations without a quibble and the BBC gave her airtime for her views.
Then Banks sued her and on the morning of the case she dropped her accusations and apologised.
She has raised large sums via crowd funding to pay her legal bills so I don’t suppose she will be out of pocket but it seems odd, since she obviously had no evidence, that she stuck to her guns right up until the court case was due to take place.

akerman · 29/11/2020 14:10

I work in a university and we are desperate to retain the EU students. It should be remembered, also, that arrangements were reciprocal. U.K. students who didn’t want to end up 50000 in debt could take courses, say, in Amsterdam in English for a tiny amount of the cost.
Also the NHS was able to use hospitals in France for procedures when our waiting lists got too long. We benefitted from so much give and take.

StrippedFridge · 29/11/2020 14:11

I am a remainer. One of the main arguments I heard from leavers was that the EU is a stultifying force, bureaucratic, excelling at nothing, whereas Britain is willing to take risks, try out new things and be nimble but is held back by the EU. The Common Agricultural Policy is held up as an example. Also the EU's refusal to allow free trade in services, only goods and people, which benefits France and Germany but penalises the UK.

I don't think we are as nimble as those leavers think but I also don't think it is a mad argument. I hope they are right and I am wrong.

HmmSureJan · 29/11/2020 14:26

I voted remain. I would vote remain again if there was the opportunity. However I don't think it's going to be the "disaster" that everyone claims. It's going to be clunky for a while till we find our feet and those of us who wished we could have remained will always grieve that we were forced out and find a lot to complain about in the new systems and processes but ultimately we will work through it because what other option is there? Also the claims that certain politicians did this purely to line their own pockets is true but no one's pockets are lined if the the entire economy and infrastructure collapses. It's not Boris et al who will make this work, it's the thousands of staff behind them in the various offices and organisations throughout Whitehall who will shove this through as efficiently as possible with sheer hard work and bloody mindedness because they always do.

I struggle a bit with the constant predictions of utter free fall and disaster, it's alright moaning about things but we just have to get on with it now. What other choice is there?

PolkadotGiraffe · 29/11/2020 14:32

The EU costs the UK money, the most recent statistics I can find are from 2018 when we contributed 20 billion with a return of 11 billion. Yes, the EU has provided grants for the regeneration of cities, agriculture etc, but if we hadn’t paid the EU 20 billion pounds, we could have ‘cut out the middle man.’

No, EU membership did not cost the UK money. You are looking at contributions to the EU budget and not factoring in the immense economic benefits that come from the single market and customs free trade. It is indisputable that the arrangement provided us with a far greater economic benefit than the amount that we paid in contributions. Even our own Leave-crazy Government has admitted this repeatedly in its own forecasts showing that ANY version of leaving will make us poorer. And the more extreme/ harder the exit, the worse off we will be. In short, your argument here is factually wrong.

Some of the countries in the EU are a financial risk. An example of this is Greece with the major problems it had with the recession of 2008. As part of the EU, we were at risk of being drawn in to help out when countries were struggling. That would have cost us more money. I do think, to control this further, the EU would have drawn us in to the euro currency, which would have put us at more risk financially.

Nope. The UK had the most advantageous deal of any country in the EU, hence it being so mind boggling that we willingly gave it up. We had a veto on providing financial support to other EU countries in distress. We were not part of the Euro and had a veto on joining it so the issues with that currency did not impact us directly in the way you suggest.

Student finance – EU students are eligible for student loans from Student Finance England/Wales/NI or the Student Awards Agency Scotland, and pay the same tuition fee as UK students. International students pay a much higher fee. Whilst this is great that people want to come here and study, EU students (and our home students) are going to be less financially appealing to universities. The benefit of a home student is that they will, hopefully, stay in the UK and use their degree here, either to support the country, either practically (medicine/dentistry/engineering) or financially, by taking better paid jobs. EU students, who can apply to study here relatively easily and cheaply, can head straight back to their own home countries, having had the benefit of capped tuition fees and student finance. International students have to jump through more hoops in order to study here.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Post-exit per your argument there will be even more foreign students that are more appealing to universities than UK students as EU students will now also pay higher fees. So even less incentive to give places to UK students?

In reality anyway that is not how things work. Universities cannot simply pack out their entire campus with only foreign students.

Also if you look at the evidence, EU students/ immigrants tend to stick around while working in their prime, and either marry into the local population or move home later in life before they get old and start costing us money. So EU immigrants were always a bonus economically; paying more tax on average than UK citizens and claiming less in benefits etc. Whereas for immigrants from other non-EU countries the opposite is the case. Many studies over the years have proved this.

Finally, the ability to study in other EU countries and be treated the same in terms of finance as local students was a reciprocal benefit, that the Leave voters have taken away from our young people, much to the detriment of their opportunities.

NHS – the latest figures I can find relating to health tourism in the UK are from a BMJ article from 2018 and which looked at a study in 2017. Health tourism does happen, the costs aren’t huge but it does occur. – in the small study they undertook, 50 of the 8894 people treated were ineligible for NHS treatment. Estimates of the cost vary widely between 350 million and two billion pounds annually. This isn’t a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. However, an elective bowel resection, for instance, costs just under twenty thousand (excluding the cost of any readmissions and further treatment to treat the underlying cause, ie chemo or radiotherapy), so even a saving of 350 million would mean we have the available funds to pay for seventeen and a half thousand major operations per year. This is nothing to do with the 350 million weekly that is talked about – I do not, and have never believed the NHS would get given 350 million pounds a week). This is an annual cost and is just highlighting what the money spent on health tourism annually could actually cover for those people eligible for NHS treatment.

The arrangement in the EU is that while you can get health treatment in any EU country as an EU citizen without paying, that foreign health service can take your details and bill it back to your Government. Therefore, "health tourism" within the EU did not exist: the Government providing the healthcare could always recover the cost from the country from which the citizen originated. There were many failings in the NHS of them not doing this, but that was a UK systems problem, not an issue with the EU. We had the right to get that money back, all we had to do was ask for it.

"Health tourism" is when people get health treatment from the NHS who are not entitled to it and the cost cannot be recovered. The EU system meant it could always be recovered if we chose to ask the relevant Governments to return it. It is a system that has functioned perfectly well for decades, hence the European Health Insurance Card: that was its purpose.

Furthering on from health tourism, when people come to the UK from overseas, there are generally requirements about the person’s English language ability (I know there will be exceptions eg asylum seekers). People from the EU do not have to meet this requirement due to the freedom of movement. I am going to be honest here and say I know how the NHS works but do not know about other government bodies. The NHS bears the cost of interpreters when needed for appointments. We are not meant to use friends or family members to interpret, as we do not know that they are interpreting correctly, either because they can’t or because they have ulterior motives, and have to arrange interpreters. These are costly for the NHS (if I remember rightly, the cost for a two-hour appointment (I work somewhere where the appointments are long) for an interpreter for one patient was something like two hundred and fifty pounds. That was the invoice we received, including travel time for the interpreter. I believe there were no agency fees paid on that as it was via the government translation service). Again, two hundred and fifty pounds is nothing, really. But the cumulative cost of this must be substantial. And I know not all people from outside of the EU will have a level of English good enough for a health appointment, but the numbers of people needing a translator (in my experience) are fewer. As I said, I only know how the NHS works but assume it must be a similar set-up in other government organisations.

Again, a non-issue. The vast majority of EU immigrants to the UK speak English. And no, it is not a requirement for immigrants from other countries to do so; many enter on spouse or family visas etc and often don't learn the language at all. Can you provide a figure for these translation costs broken down by language? For this to be a reason to unleash the hell of Brexit in terms of the loss or rights and jobs etc on the UK population, presumably you've researched them and they are very significant? Bearing in mind that the Bank of England says that Brexit, in the long run, will cost us far more than Covid. I really doubt this is more than a drop in the ocean and I suspect if you do have figures for it you'll find the majority of the cost is for translation from non-EU languages.

I am sure there are other reasons people voted to leave the EU, but these are my reasons and I continue to believe they are important.

I really hope so and would love to hear them. We are all waiting to hear of even one significant benefit that will make this shitshow worthwhile.

Lonelycrab · 29/11/2020 14:42

@OrchardBlossom I’m not calling you stupid by any means, but I do think your arguments are not very well thought out, and don’t actually stand up to scrutiny when you ask a few questions.

You talk of health tourism but what about those from the EU that work so hard for our nhs? Do we just magic up replacements?

Brexit so far has cost more than the entire contributions we have made over the years-no small amount and we have paid this to in effect make ourselves poorer.I think polka dot sums it up better than I.

ListeningQuietly · 29/11/2020 14:53

Many of the Brexit positives that are listed
could have been started since the vote
because none of them are stopped by being in the EU
(manufacturing, farming, housing, regional support etc)
but the Government has not chosen to invest in the country since 2016
so its not likely to start now

KenDodd · 29/11/2020 15:07

One thing I've learnt about Leave voters is that absolutely nothing will move them. The scales fell from my eyes on that because of the threat to the peace in NI. If the possibility of restarting a civil war doesn't move them nothing will.
I've often thought that if I'd voted Leave I'd be fucking furious with the people who'd sold it to me, that the future we're getting is nothing like the one they painted.
As I said, they can own the consequences though.

Helmetbymidnight · 29/11/2020 15:15

@OrchardBlossom - so even though the Bank of England and most economists forecast/admit to a massive hit to the economy for several years - you still think we'll financially be better off out?

Even though this process alone has cost almost the same as our contributions?

That is extraordinary.

I thought even brexitteers have stopped claiming we'll be better off!

You seem to believe its a simple 20 Bil out and 11 bil in? is that right?
You didn't factor in that we are getting the benefits of being part in the single market and also enjoying the inbound investment we get from international companies again, because we are in the single market.

Did you deliberately not factor that in?

MsJinks · 29/11/2020 15:18

I am a strong remainer, and believe that in a ‘global’ context world we are naive to go it alone. However, though very limited, I have heard a few fairly reasonable views why people voted leave, around EU structure for example. Unfortunately, a big issue I had with leaving, which has only increased lately, is leaving under this particular government - they have never got fully on board with HR or helping the less fortunate and I could never understand why people believing in the £350 million ever thought it would be distributed fairly. Currently, they are blatantly asset stripping the U.K. under CV, and we are all aware of disaster capitalists in the cabinet - to leave under this government seemed a massively dangerous thing altogether. Plus their astonishing incompetence is more than scary, and for the entire time since campaigning there has been no coherent plan, and I don’t understand how that is fine - are we just crossing our fingers and hoping Santa does exist 🤷🏼‍♀️ . Any benefits there possibly could have been from Brexit are certain to end up in their own pockets, or if not monetary then they just will not be not managed into fruition.

mummmy2017 · 29/11/2020 15:56

We are all leavers now.
How ever some are now hoping to be Rejoiners.

ListeningQuietly · 29/11/2020 16:01

The EU will never give the UK as good a deal as it once had.
That ship has sailed.
Now we have to hope that the UK Government looks after its populace
the signs are not good

At least with Biden in the White House, the WTO will be able to function again

setting the terms of the UKs trade in that unelected, unaccountable way that it does Grin

Littleideasbigbook · 29/11/2020 16:19

Still not heard one good reason.

The contributions, health tourism post and NHS interpreters sounded convincing but scrutiny means it has collapsed again. Conveniently forgetting to a cost benefit analysis on both: I work in the NHS. Using an interpreter isn't just a 'loss'...you can use language interpretation to ensure that escalation and prevention of a disease is managed, saving £ down the line.

Also in regards to health tourism, you would need to frame this within the context of reciprocal health care agreements. Which has been ignored and which the BMJ spelt out in 2016 before the referendum as being a risk to the NHS.

ReturntoSpamfritters · 29/11/2020 16:22

I'm not a leaver, ever. Leavers voted for this shitshow.
Rejoining won't happen for a long time but hope is the last thing to die.
I imagine lots of us will become economic migrants and leave you to it.

ReturntoSpamfritters · 29/11/2020 16:26

Talking of disaster capitalism, Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine is very educational, if a bit grim. Enjoy.

womaninatightspot · 29/11/2020 16:28

No but I was a remainer. Complete disaster tbh.

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