AIBU to ask if anyone here still thinks Brexit is a good idea?

[Sundiamond]

There was a time when the board was alive with argument around Brexit.

Does anyone still believe that Brexit is a good move and we, as a country, will gain more than we will lose?

So everyone - including the Brexit leaders - say that the country is going to take a massive hit economically and it may take up to fifty years to recover - and then a Brexiteer comes along here and says they think we'll be saving a lot of money - and we're just meant to nod our head and go, ooh yes, that's correct.
Is that what you want?
Because its not correct.

I live in a leaver area and I know and love many Brexiteers - and the vast majority of things they say about the EU and Brexit are utterly and completely factually incorrect.

And many of the Brexiteers I know did it because they don't like the Muslims coming over here.
Seriously.

Others said it was to take back control - when I ask what they mean they say they won, get over it.

How long am I supposed to treat that opinion with respect for?

While I believe we are better off inside the EU I do not believe that people who think we are better off out are ill-informed, thick or racist.

Well I certainly do. 17 out of the 20 closest people to me voted to leave. I live in the rural Midlands. Not one of them could give a coherent reason why they voted to leave beyond "we can make our own rules and not be shackled to the EU". When I probed there was no substance behind that reasoning. Now all 17 are a little sheepish if the topic comes up.

Most definitely ill-informed and sheer damn laziness too.

@Helmetbymidnight - based on primary school level geography there is a certain logic to a Muslims/EU argument, y'know, mainland Europe is kind of inbetween Asia and the UK, so, yeah, some kind of blockade there might have some kind of impact. But, obviously, the number of e.g. UK Pakistanis who arrived on these shores via the long land journey through Europe is vanishingly, vanishingly small.

Meanwhile, leave campaigners in places like Bradford etc targeted Muslim voters by saying it'd be easier for them to bring extended family etc over here once EU immigration had dried up. Probably one of the very few honest arguments made by the leave campaign.

Is there a way that the UK could have left the EU without damaging the GFA? If not, does that mean that in order to preserve the GFA the UK could never leave? Would N.I. leaving the UK be the answer if a border poll indicated a united Ireland was preferred? I've tried to dig deeper but so much on google seems to be biased opinion rather than fact. Now we've had Brexit, what is the best solution for N.I.?

Wow! Talk about lumping everyone in together when you're roundly condemning others for doing the same.

But I am not "roundly condemning" anyone though... I am offering an explanation as to why leavers won't engage on this thread and in general.

The WTO is run by 480 highly paid unelected bureaucrats in Geneva
they will be taking back control
of the UKs trade if there is no deal with the EU

The Westminster Government left the regions to rot
knowing that EU regional funds would pick up the slack

The UK is almost unique in being willing to sell off crown jewel businesses to overseas owners
London is the money laundering capital of the world and will no longer be subject to EU oversight.

The end of the Brexit process will entrench inequality
not reduce it

Is there a way that the UK could have left the EU without damaging the GFA?

Yes. It would have been a soft brexit.

If not, does that mean that in order to preserve the GFA the UK could never leave?

No, but this is something that should have been tabled and bottomed out before a vote was even mentioned to the populace.

Would N.I. leaving the UK be the answer if a border poll indicated a united Ireland was preferred?

Nope. NI aren’t there yet. ROI strongly object to the U.K. dumping problems on their lap that they CBA to handle properly themselves.

The WTO is run by 480 highly paid unelected bureaucrats in Geneva

I never understood this. Brexiteers can’t bear to be told what to do by (not actually unelected) MEPs, but if it’s the WTO it’s A-OK?

Bizarre.

However the EU agricultural policy has been an environmental disaster and we now have chance to make the Duke of Westminster and Queenie work a little harder for their subsidies. That does please me

Love lemon curd There are vast tracts of farmland owned by people from all over the world - Danish billionaire Troels Povslen, the Maktoum family, trusts registered in Canada, US, Middle East etc - all of whom will receive subsidies.
Do you object to that or is it just rich Britons receiving subsidies that you dislike?

Look at what is happening in America and has happened in other countries in the past. When you decide that opposite opinions are due to bad character and won't listen with an open mind to the other side that's when countries divide. It stops us coming to sensible decisions through open debate. We polarise and the extremes gain more power

Johnson was 50/50 on whether to support Leave or Remain, even now he knows a no deal is bad for the UK, so we cling to fishing as a reason to forge ahead.

We've 13 pages and still no one has come forward with valid reasons for Brexit that compensate for the downsides.
So its not a matter of not listening to one side or the other, its down to a lack of substance from the brexit argument.

We've 13 pages and still no one has come forward with valid reasons for Brexit that compensate for the downsides.
It won't be possible for anyone to provide "valid reasons" to people who decide no valid reasons exist.
These threads (of which there are about one a week) are just pointless back-slapping.

Reasons for Brexit are irrelevant.
It has happened.
Now the UK needs to look forwards.

Will its trade be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Geneva or Brussels ?

At least with Brussels only 27 countries have a veto
Geneva has 169 countries that Johnson can insult
what could possibly go wrong?

If we do want cheap affordable food, we will have to keep subsidising farming. Or we will have to pay for it on our shopping.
Regarding the WTO, it scapes my comprehension too. I have been told "We own the WTO", We meaning the UK. I do hope so for our own good.
I do compare Brexit to a full on divorce. It is not good for anyones finances, but there is no way forward for these two parties. UK's population has made clear they want a chance to make their own way and rules. It does worry me that there may have been quite a lot of plain lies about how the EU is run used along the process, but this is irrelevant now, because UK is already out.
It is now the time to hand in the keys to the shared house and family business, and need to decide yet whether they are going to share a fraction of the business or fully part without any further ties.
Once they pass through this, UK will have a deep in their economy. Likely, the rest of the EU too, though they are a bigger group. And then they will find their own feet, make their own business, and I think UK wants to re-find its identity. To me, it is about identity and independance.
They will have to find a new way to relate to each other, as they are still neighbours.
Am I happy about losing economic welfare? No, not at all. But the majority has decided (several times), and this is a democracy. So now, I think we need to focus on finding that way forward. How are we going to get supplies? What is happening with export/ import? With farming? Manufacturing? The City? Which new deals are out there?
But none of the Prime Ministers in charge of Brexit has been very outspoken about this. And it looks like we have no plans. It feels like handling the keys back, getting your suitcase, but not having a new place where to live!

The pro-Brexit posters, I'm interested to know what your thoughts are on Scotland and N Ireland's place in the Union post Brexit?

The Brexit arguments for Britain leaving the UK are akin to those for the Scots to leave Britain. I.e They put in more than they get out without much overall say.

Likewise, NI take out more than they put in. Leavers want to get away from smaller countries in the EU benefitting from the money Britain have put in.

I might be looking at it simplistically but they seem to be the main reasons for Brexit and both are prevalent within the UK

@Saoirse7

The pro-Brexit posters, I'm interested to know what your thoughts are on Scotland and N Ireland's place in the Union post Brexit?

The Brexit arguments for Britain leaving the UK are akin to those for the Scots to leave Britain. I.e They put in more than they get out without much overall say.

Likewise, NI take out more than they put in. Leavers want to get away from smaller countries in the EU benefitting from the money Britain have put in.

I might be looking at it simplistically but they seem to be the main reasons for Brexit and both are prevalent within the UK

Of particular interest would be the views of the 40% and 42% who voted leave in Scotland and Northern Ireland respectively.

@TheKeatingFive
Thanks. So a solution should have been worked out before the brexit referendum. Oh dear.

The WTO is run by 480 highly paid unelected bureaucrats in Geneva
they will be taking back control

The WTO is reactive, not proactive.

it may take up to fifty years to recover.

More disingenuous misquoting from the Remain camp.

The WTO is reactive, not proactive.
But it is neither democratic nor accountable
and the UK will certainly not be in control

And actually I'm wrong, it has 623 staff
www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/who_we_are_e.htm
with the top job vacant ....
www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org4_e.htm

So a solution should have been worked out before the brexit referendum. Oh dear.

Yes unfortunately

DynamoKev

Indeed, that would be very interesting.

From what I can gather lot of who who voted in NI can be attributed to the DUP and the thought that they'd rather be poor and have their Britishness solidified.

Many, many farmers were lied about the grass being greener and there is a lot of discontent about the prospect of a No Deal Brexit. There is also a push for a relaxation of the EU rules for an All Ireland approach to agriculture.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-49742567

Look at the constituency votes, not one single border one voted for Brexit, just 7/18 constituencies voted in favour.

The vote was in or out, not hard to understand.
People who could be bothered to vote carried the day.
Not a Once but FIVE times.
How any votes do you need or is it a case of keep voting till maybe the 1 vote gives you the result you want?

The UK is/was on the winning side of votes something like 90% of the time.

The votes in the EU are cast by MEPs who WE ELECT. Or I do anyway; maybe you choose not to vote in those elections?

We were still losing a directly accountable government we could vote out.
The President of the Commission is approved by MEPs, who (as above) are elected by us.

Brexit and post-Brexit activity was largely orchestrated by an unelected SPAD

Yes and the elected Boris Johnson has just got rid of him after a year or so due to democratic pressure to do so. Due to politicking at No 10, more like.

The pro-Brexit posters, I'm interested to know what your thoughts are on Scotland and N Ireland's place in the Union post Brexit?

N. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England will all have the same place they do now, unless they choose otherwise.

I don't think England or Wales will vote to leave the UK. N Ireland might but even the ROI govt recognise this can only be done via a referendum and I doubt there is enough support for it. In any case, it would be a bloodbath if it were to happen and I doubt the people in Dublin really want that.

As for Scotland, the main driver for independence is the SNP. They would be driving for independence regardless of what is done by the UK govt, regardless of Brexit. Their populist style doesn't require a particular set of circumstances because they will push independence regardless of the benefit or harm it would cause their country.

It's surprising how many Scots seem to have been hoodwinked, but then it's the same as with Brexit. Both are very similar, and the reasons they were/will be voted for are the same: blame foreigners for your problems, and promise a golden future despite having no actual plans for making it work.

At least if Scotland do leave it will give the rest of the UK a chance to play the role the EU have in the Brexit negotiations - Scotland literally wouldn't have any leverage whatsoever, given that oil exports will be worthless in a few years.