AIBU to ask if anyone here still thinks Brexit is a good idea?

[Sundiamond]

There was a time when the board was alive with argument around Brexit.

Does anyone still believe that Brexit is a good move and we, as a country, will gain more than we will lose?

Europe were moving towards becoming a federal state

Were they? Is there any evidence of this?

@Pyewhacket

Brexit is a done deal. Get used to it.

But honestly, they aren't stupid. They understand all of the issues and consequences. 🤨🧐

If you come from a northern red wall town, for example, it might be a good thing, at least in the short term. You've gone from being completely unrepresented in parliament and your town left to rot, to suddenly 'leveling up' and courted for your vote.

The country will be poorer though which will ultimately affect all regions.

The landscape is changing... I mean, arable areas. We go out in countryside most days and fields are different, margins, mustard, wildflowers. It looks to me like gearing up to import more of the 'cheaper' foods like grains & maybe potatoes, and back to raising more expensive crops (maybe more livestock & pasture).

Rewilding is in, restoring ponds. I'm offering no opinions on all this. Just noticing.

What happened to the 50 pence Brexit coins?

Once we leave with no deal the voters in the north especially will be very hard hit. They’ll find out then exactly how much they matter to government.

Levelling Down should be the correct term.

Take a closer look at the Japan trade deal we've done, nowhere as good as the deal we had with them through the EU and will cost us billions. This is what happens when you are negotiating trade deals from a position of weakness.

@User158340

If you come from a northern red wall town, for example, it might be a good thing, at least in the short term. You've gone from being completely unrepresented in parliament and your town left to rot, to suddenly 'leveling up' and courted for your vote.

The country will be poorer though which will ultimately affect all regions.

They courted the votes with propaganda to get a majority. They have no intention to "level up" anything. These are elitist, wealthy people who profit from the misery and exlploitation of others. It's so sad that anyone was gullible enough to believe this narrative. On what planet would these millionnaires funded by billionnaires be worrying about how normal people in any part of the country are feeling? It's delusional, at best, to buy into that nonsense. As time will show.

Yes, I'm afraid the levelling up was just a lie, and as for being courted for their votes, well, the election is over now. They will still be left to rot because the Tories have never given a shit.
So, probably not a good thing.

@sally067

Levelling Down should be the correct term.

Take a closer look at the Japan trade deal we've done, nowhere as good as the deal we had with them through the EU and will cost us billions. This is what happens when you are negotiating trade deals from a position of weakness.

Yes. That's why countries all around the world are forming trading blocks. More power together. Trying to mimick the success of the EU; the largest, richest, most stable and successful trading block in the world.

And at a time of geopolitical and economic turmoil, we (with the best deal of any country in the most successful and richest block, with all of the economic, physical, technological, social, trade and security protections that provided) quit it, on purpose. And given another couple of years to reconsider still say yep, this is a great plan!

Absolutely mad and history will not be kind on these lunatics.

Ok, if you want to know, these are my reasons for voting for brexit. The reasons themselves are unchanged by the events since the referendum although I unreservedly agree that we’ve made an almighty shit show out of leaving for which I mostly blame Teresa May and whoever advised her to go and negotiate with Brussels without first getting a UK mandate as to what outcome she was negotiating to achieve.

In no particular order:

The EU itself is fundamentally flawed. The effect of any economic area, large or small, is generally to benefit the wealthier areas which have an inbuilt advantage over the poorer areas. This can be seen in the US where everything is peachy on the east and west coast and there is shocking deprivation in the “flyover states” in the middle. In the EU the benefit to the richer Northern countries, particularly Germany, has been hugely disproportionate. This is common sense really: what does Germany export to, say Greece? Technology and automobiles based on their strong tech knowledge abs skilled work force. What does Greece export to Germany? Young workers, and low value added goods like olive oil? There will always be an imbalance.

This problem of unequal benefit is particularly acute in a large geographic area where the populations of different countries don’t have a huge feeling of national dependence and “togetherness”, because the rich countries feel no obligation to look out for the poor countries. Obvious example: the way the EU (along with the IMF) absolutely shafted Greece. That for me was the moment when my “leave” vote was born. I felt and feel that the way that an organisation in favour of ever closer union treated a country left behind was disgraceful.

The lack of “togetherness” that I mentioned above is exacerbated by the lack of democracy in the EU’s decision making processes and the problem of its size which makes voting for an MEP seem deeply remote to the average constituent. How many people can name their MEP vs their MP? It’s hard to feel connected to something so large, which is why local government tends to work.

I am a lawyer. (I happen to also have a degree in economics, just for those who believe only the stupid voted for Brexit). It is striking how incompatible our laws are on many points with those of most European counties. Take forced heirship for example or the fact that many European countries have no concept of beneficial ownership, which is a fundamental branch of English law (of our three divisions of the High Court, one of them is the Chancery Division relating to matters of equity which are hugely important here, not to mention offshore. I know “offshore” is a dirty word nowadays but if you’re worried about damage to the city then that would be a walk in the park compared to the collapse of the offshore trust industry.

In any event the overwhelming majority of English judges very much don’t understand EU law as it applies here - the face of an English mid-level commercial judge suddenly presented with an EU law point is, at best, worried and at worst infuriated. That’s good for no one at an EU or English level.

Speaking of Greece, those who bang on about how much EU subsidies benefit deprived areas of the U.K. have never stood, as I have, on a small Greek island frequented almost exclusively by wealthy shipowners and walked along the shiny new enormously expensive harbour to house all their lovely boats with a big sign declaring EU finding. No problem getting money to the where the rich want it to go in the southern countries of the EU and it will have been UK taxpayers contributing to that as much as Greek taxpayers to motorways in Wales.

It is very clear from the rhetoric and actions of several successive EU leaders that the aim is and will always be for “ever closer union”. At some point it will become impossible to get off the ride. In all honesty I think the events of the last few years have shown that we may already be there.

The above is my view and for me those reasons were and still are weighty enough to justify leaving. I understand that my reasons wouldn’t necessarily be weighty enough for someone else, that’s how democracy works. My other half and I voted differently on the referendum but we respect each other’s views. It’s a great shame that not everyone has felt the same.

I do wish we hadn’t buggered it up so much though. I don’t think that was inevitable but I think it’s a great shame Cameron resigned so quickly with no competent successor.

We buggered it up (and still are buggering it up) because it's undeliverable.

@Boredofboris

Very well said.

boredofboris Actually that's the most cogent set of reasons I've ever seen for leaving. I don't agree (as you suspected Remainers wouldn't) that they outweigh the reasons to remain, but I do understand why some people feel the EU hasn't always worked well. And it doesn't always get things right. It's not done well on the refugee crisis for instance, but my God, I think they get a hell of a lot more right than those ruling us in Westminster. And I mind desperately about losing my freedom of movement, and about the loss of reciprocity on so many issues. On the matter of Greece, though, there is a real problem of tax evasion that Greece refuses to confront and I think a Greek unwillingness to tackle this had a great deal to do with the lack of sympathy shown towards them by the EU.

I think it's also a little unfair to suggest that EU funding gets channelled in favour of the wealthy. There are areas in the UK who are going to miss out enormously from EU funding, as the Cornish realised on June 24th 2016, which feature in the list of the poorest ten regions in Northern Europe (9 of which are in the UK). When I lived in Ireland there were many, many instances of EU funding which was not simply going to wealthy areas.

@BoredofBoris

Ok, if you want to know, these are my reasons for voting for brexit. The reasons themselves are unchanged by the events since the referendum although I unreservedly agree that we’ve made an almighty shit show out of leaving for which I mostly blame Teresa May and whoever advised her to go and negotiate with Brussels without first getting a UK mandate as to what outcome she was negotiating to achieve.

In no particular order:

The EU itself is fundamentally flawed. The effect of any economic area, large or small, is generally to benefit the wealthier areas which have an inbuilt advantage over the poorer areas. This can be seen in the US where everything is peachy on the east and west coast and there is shocking deprivation in the “flyover states” in the middle. In the EU the benefit to the richer Northern countries, particularly Germany, has been hugely disproportionate. This is common sense really: what does Germany export to, say Greece? Technology and automobiles based on their strong tech knowledge abs skilled work force. What does Greece export to Germany? Young workers, and low value added goods like olive oil? There will always be an imbalance.

This problem of unequal benefit is particularly acute in a large geographic area where the populations of different countries don’t have a huge feeling of national dependence and “togetherness”, because the rich countries feel no obligation to look out for the poor countries. Obvious example: the way the EU (along with the IMF) absolutely shafted Greece. That for me was the moment when my “leave” vote was born. I felt and feel that the way that an organisation in favour of ever closer union treated a country left behind was disgraceful.

The lack of “togetherness” that I mentioned above is exacerbated by the lack of democracy in the EU’s decision making processes and the problem of its size which makes voting for an MEP seem deeply remote to the average constituent. How many people can name their MEP vs their MP? It’s hard to feel connected to something so large, which is why local government tends to work.

I am a lawyer. (I happen to also have a degree in economics, just for those who believe only the stupid voted for Brexit). It is striking how incompatible our laws are on many points with those of most European counties. Take forced heirship for example or the fact that many European countries have no concept of beneficial ownership, which is a fundamental branch of English law (of our three divisions of the High Court, one of them is the Chancery Division relating to matters of equity which are hugely important here, not to mention offshore. I know “offshore” is a dirty word nowadays but if you’re worried about damage to the city then that would be a walk in the park compared to the collapse of the offshore trust industry.

In any event the overwhelming majority of English judges very much don’t understand EU law as it applies here - the face of an English mid-level commercial judge suddenly presented with an EU law point is, at best, worried and at worst infuriated. That’s good for no one at an EU or English level.

Speaking of Greece, those who bang on about how much EU subsidies benefit deprived areas of the U.K. have never stood, as I have, on a small Greek island frequented almost exclusively by wealthy shipowners and walked along the shiny new enormously expensive harbour to house all their lovely boats with a big sign declaring EU finding. No problem getting money to the where the rich want it to go in the southern countries of the EU and it will have been UK taxpayers contributing to that as much as Greek taxpayers to motorways in Wales.

It is very clear from the rhetoric and actions of several successive EU leaders that the aim is and will always be for “ever closer union”. At some point it will become impossible to get off the ride. In all honesty I think the events of the last few years have shown that we may already be there.

The above is my view and for me those reasons were and still are weighty enough to justify leaving. I understand that my reasons wouldn’t necessarily be weighty enough for someone else, that’s how democracy works. My other half and I voted differently on the referendum but we respect each other’s views. It’s a great shame that not everyone has felt the same.

I do wish we hadn’t buggered it up so much though. I don’t think that was inevitable but I think it’s a great shame Cameron resigned so quickly with no competent successor.

In my opinion much of this is mistaken. You say you are a lawyer but this post seems to contain some serious misunderstandings of law so I'd be interested to hear which chambers you work in and what your area if expertise is?

Yes there is always a disparity in economic areas between rich and poor. The EU budget and much maligned developmemt grants to poorer members were designed to try to address this. I agree more needs to be done, but also wish Brexiteers would recognise the despite our larger contribution to poorer countries we benefitted to a far greater extent evonomically than our cost of contributions to the budget, therefore this was a win/ win situation. Whereas within the UK it is not. I agree that within the single currency it is not because those economies are so different so to have one currency without political union also will be disfunctional: but whatever way countries with the Euro decided to go on that to resolve it, it had little to do with us, as we had a veto to never join it. The EU is totally separate from the Euro and is a much more representive, functional, transparent and effective democracy than we have ever had in the UK.

Also one would hope that as a lawyer you had an eye on geopolitical events and the reason it is good to get and keep countries such as Poland and Hungary in the fold is that geopolitics is going to escalate in the next 20-30 years and we need to try to keep them on our side, not in Russia's influence. The young people there want to be part of Europe. We need to support them in that. Yes their pace of societal change and liberation of values is slower, but that is because they began is in the late '80s not the '50s! Fundamentally those countries are European in values and in decades to come, we will need them.

Are you seriously, openly arguing that we should let our entire social value system be wrecked so that people can maintain their offshore trusts? Or so that "mid-level" judges don't get upset that actual laws protecting rights apply regardless of their personal prejudices? We were all lucky that that was the case, until now.

It's very difficult to respect the views of someone who shows so little understanding of the big picture, or the entire point of the EU in the first place.

@BoredofBoris

Ok, if you want to know, these are my reasons for voting for brexit. The reasons themselves are unchanged by the events since the referendum although I unreservedly agree that we’ve made an almighty shit show out of leaving for which I mostly blame Teresa May and whoever advised her to go and negotiate with Brussels without first getting a UK mandate as to what outcome she was negotiating to achieve.

In no particular order:

The EU itself is fundamentally flawed. The effect of any economic area, large or small, is generally to benefit the wealthier areas which have an inbuilt advantage over the poorer areas. This can be seen in the US where everything is peachy on the east and west coast and there is shocking deprivation in the “flyover states” in the middle. In the EU the benefit to the richer Northern countries, particularly Germany, has been hugely disproportionate. This is common sense really: what does Germany export to, say Greece? Technology and automobiles based on their strong tech knowledge abs skilled work force. What does Greece export to Germany? Young workers, and low value added goods like olive oil? There will always be an imbalance.

This problem of unequal benefit is particularly acute in a large geographic area where the populations of different countries don’t have a huge feeling of national dependence and “togetherness”, because the rich countries feel no obligation to look out for the poor countries. Obvious example: the way the EU (along with the IMF) absolutely shafted Greece. That for me was the moment when my “leave” vote was born. I felt and feel that the way that an organisation in favour of ever closer union treated a country left behind was disgraceful.

The lack of “togetherness” that I mentioned above is exacerbated by the lack of democracy in the EU’s decision making processes and the problem of its size which makes voting for an MEP seem deeply remote to the average constituent. How many people can name their MEP vs their MP? It’s hard to feel connected to something so large, which is why local government tends to work.

I am a lawyer. (I happen to also have a degree in economics, just for those who believe only the stupid voted for Brexit). It is striking how incompatible our laws are on many points with those of most European counties. Take forced heirship for example or the fact that many European countries have no concept of beneficial ownership, which is a fundamental branch of English law (of our three divisions of the High Court, one of them is the Chancery Division relating to matters of equity which are hugely important here, not to mention offshore. I know “offshore” is a dirty word nowadays but if you’re worried about damage to the city then that would be a walk in the park compared to the collapse of the offshore trust industry.

In any event the overwhelming majority of English judges very much don’t understand EU law as it applies here - the face of an English mid-level commercial judge suddenly presented with an EU law point is, at best, worried and at worst infuriated. That’s good for no one at an EU or English level.

Speaking of Greece, those who bang on about how much EU subsidies benefit deprived areas of the U.K. have never stood, as I have, on a small Greek island frequented almost exclusively by wealthy shipowners and walked along the shiny new enormously expensive harbour to house all their lovely boats with a big sign declaring EU finding. No problem getting money to the where the rich want it to go in the southern countries of the EU and it will have been UK taxpayers contributing to that as much as Greek taxpayers to motorways in Wales.

It is very clear from the rhetoric and actions of several successive EU leaders that the aim is and will always be for “ever closer union”. At some point it will become impossible to get off the ride. In all honesty I think the events of the last few years have shown that we may already be there.

The above is my view and for me those reasons were and still are weighty enough to justify leaving. I understand that my reasons wouldn’t necessarily be weighty enough for someone else, that’s how democracy works. My other half and I voted differently on the referendum but we respect each other’s views. It’s a great shame that not everyone has felt the same.

I do wish we hadn’t buggered it up so much though. I don’t think that was inevitable but I think it’s a great shame Cameron resigned so quickly with no competent successor.

Whatever your reasons for voting is to leave the flawed EU, you have made it harder to travel and narrowed everyone’s horizons, so fuck off. Yep, just as narrow-minded as those who’s vote abhor, don’t care. Fuck off.

BoredofBoris
I bet you voted for him though.

Whatever your reasons for voting is to leave the flawed EU, you have made it harder to travel and narrowed everyone’s horizons, so fuck off.
Yep, just as narrow-minded as those who’s vote abhor, don’t care. Fuck off.

This is reason that posters don’t bother explaining.

@Newrumpus

Whatever your reasons for voting is to leave the flawed EU, you have made it harder to travel and narrowed everyone’s horizons, so fuck off. Yep, just as narrow-minded as those who’s vote abhor, don’t care. Fuck off.

This is reason that posters don’t bother explaining.

Fine, don’t explain; couldn’t care less what your reasons are.

But be held to account when we have to go back in, attempting to negotiate from even more of a completely screwed economic position, after raising yet another generation who’ll be told that those Foreigners are responsible for this.

This problem of unequal benefit is particularly acute in a large geographic area where the populations of different countries don’t have a huge feeling of national dependence and “togetherness”, because the rich countries feel no obligation to look out for the poor countries.

As opposed to the well known solidarity shown in this country where the wealthy happily vote to be taxed more to help the deprived

Well, BoredofBoris explains some of her reasoning voting leave and two posters tell her to fuck off! Charming.

Well it's way past my bedtime so I'll only give one of my reasons and that is the CAP. It is intentionally protectionist and has done a load of harm to many African states. Many north African countries for instance could have a similar agriculture to the likes of Spain and be able to prosper but what do we have? Economic migrants sweeping across Europe and unstable states with hardening Islamic views with a great hatred of the West. Our new environmental lead agriculture policy will be fantastic for the countryside and will no longer overly benefit the large rich agricultural acreage holders of Lincolnshire or the Highland estates but will help all equally to improve our environment greatly.

If remain had won the lives of leavers would have been unchanged. Remainers have lost so much, while being called stupid for predicting the losses. And now our worst fears are being realised. It’s hardly surprising if people are pissed off.

Not once has a Leave voter said to me ‘I’msorry that you mind so much or anything of the sort. It’s been ‘Remoaners are idiots’ ‘you’re all so I democratic’. (as if the referendum had been run democratically) ‘you lost. Get over it’ ‘if you love the eu so much, go and live there’. Endlessly. And now we have the shitshow starting in January and still no deal. A no deal Brexit is predicted to lead to the collapse of 25% of farms, so forgive me for having little faith in a rosy agricultural future.

Somewhere on the guardian or bbc I read that the. V v imp fishing industry actually brings in less money than Harrods.

who’ll be told that those Foreigners are responsible for this

The thing that’s become obvious is that many leavers don’t actually know or care what sort of Brexit they get- they just want it at all costs. The irony of being told that it’s the nasty elite that are responsible for your situation, then handing the car keys of the country to Rees Mogg and Farridge, giving them carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck they want and expecting them to be acting for the good of the country. No wonder Rees looks so smug- I’d be pissing myself if I’d pulled that one off!

Leavers don’t seem to give the slightest of fucks about how hard this will hit people. One upthread said something like excuse us if we just carry on.

You won’t be carrying on though will you. None of us will, certainly not like before. And remember- there are no downsides to Brexit only considerable upsides (lol)

So given that devotion seems to be absolute, and no one gives a monkeys what happens, it’s entirely likely that when the shit hits the fan in a few weeks, the cry will be “it’s them nasty foreigners what done this to you!”

And people will lap it up hook line and sinker, because no ones paid any attention so far, have they?

I was a remain voter and Brexit has distressed me no end. I certainly won't be joining in with a Brexit festival.

However the EU agricultural policy has been an environmental disaster and we now have chance to make the Duke of Westminster and Queenie work a little harder for their subsidies. That does please me.