to tell Matt Hancock what happens if you don't come into work or school because you have a sniffle?

[chomalungma]

He is surprised by people who go to work (pre pandemic) if they have a sniffle or are feeling a bit run down because they should be at home and not spread any illness. He would like to use the diagnostic capacity build up to test for other illnesses.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55061543

I know what happens at some work places if you are off everytime you have a sniffle. Your sickness records gets investigated.

Same with schools. Does he have any idea how schools frown upon children taking time off?

"Why in Britain do we think it's acceptable to soldier on and go into work if you have flu symptoms or a runny nose, thus making your colleagues ill?

"I think that's something that is going to have to change.

"If you have, in future, flu-like symptoms, you should get a test for it and find out what's wrong with you, and if you need to stay at home to protect others, then you should stay at home.

"We are peculiarly unusual and outliers in soldiering on and still going to work, and it kind of being the culture that 'as long as you can get out of bed you still should get into work'. That should change

@chomalungma

I haven't heard of the Bradford score before

www.bradfordfactorcalculator.com/

Concern (BF 45): Sufficient days for a manager to show concern and advise on possible disciplinary of financial actions, should more absences occur during an identified period.
Concern (BF 100): Sufficient days for a manager to start disciplinary action (oral warning, written warning, formal monitoring etc)
Concern (BF 900): Sufficient days for a manager to consider dismissal

Looks harsh - especially if it looks at unplanned absences.

I could see you could have fun with Excel doing this.

Oh, it's fantastic when you're disabled.

Get a nasty chest infection because your immunity is reduced by medications and get sent home because you're a very real danger to the babies in Special Care where you work? Wonderful. Welcome back, you're in a disciplinary and you aren't allowed to break a leg, catch the flu, chickenpox, have a broken tooth/dental abscess or be rushed into hospital with appendicitis/a heart attack/stroke or anything else for the next twelve months. No having a flare of your ongoing condition, either. Forget having time to go to your Rheumatology appointment down the next corridor, either. If you watch very closely, you might spot your private medical notes are on your manager's desk the following day, as they want to know exactly what was said in your appointment, too. Which they'll deny until the cows come home when you complain and, of course, they haven't had it tracked to their desk, they've just gone and helped themselves to it.

I got the hell out of the NHS very quickly. Fuck them and fuck their Bradford Scores.

Yanbu.
He needs to have a word with employers about their draconian absence rules.

It does seem a very harsh way to judge people - and I can see how it affects people who do have the occasional absence.

People do get sickness bugs. People get really bad colds that they shouldn't bring in. Just 4 separate days off is a score of 160.

No it's not - it's a score of 64 ( I had 160 on my mind)

I've been told if my child has any sickness absence from school, I will have to 'prove it' by sending 'evidence' -the example given was a photo of cough syrup (she may or not have been given)

I’d have more respect if he tied it in to the antibiotic crises we face. So In future rapid viral testing with fever or cough to exclude covid (which could easily be multiplexed to test for flu) and to stay home if either positive and also to test people with bad sore throats etc that are seeking antibiotics, with aim to get a same day result and only antibiotics if no virus detected etc.
Staying home if you have covid in future is going to be a thing, and if we have infrastructure then test for flu too...I suspect he’s not really meaning to test for the common cold If symptoms mild.

My concern is on several issues

1. that the majority of the population need bugs to keep a healthy immune system. If small children don’t meet bugs and viruses this causes other risks. A cold for most people is normal and a part of life.

2. If we continue to be afraid of all bugs we will never get back to anything resembling normal.

3. there will always be malingerers who exploit this and I have one in my team and it annoys me no end, it could only get worse with new proposals about not working even if you have a sniffle.

Plus as a previous poster says, in the NHS it isn't even a number of days, it is a number of incidents - so three occasions of 1 day each is enough to get a sickness review.

Another reason for soldiering on in the NHS is the routine non-replacement of staff that leave and the budget saving that creates. Many departments don't even have enough nurses to cover holidays, let alone people going off sick.

Staying home if you have covid in future is going to be a thing, and if we have infrastructure then test for flu too...I suspect he’s not really meaning to test for the common cold If symptoms mild
I remember when you were supposed to stay home if you had norovirus. At my son's secondary (pre-Covid) they scrapped that and said everyone had to come in, none of this 24/48 hour past last D&V stuff, just come to school (and get a trip to the cinema at the end). One teacher even said that if he had to come into school, then the kids did too.
Obviously Covid-19 is much more serious than norovirus, but just an example to show how policies and attitudes change when attendance and presenteeism rules supreme (and your employer penalises you calling in sick with return-to-work interviews and sickness reviews).

Many years ago i worked for a big supermarket chain, felt really unwell,had to ring every day for 4 days. Went back,2 weeks later felt no better,called manager who told me to ring every single day to update. Went back after 3 days to receive a verbal warning. Week later i was in hospital with a cancer diagnosis, manager rang home to tell me a written worning was being issued if i didn't get intouch,my husband told her to f off as i was having a brain tumour op. I left.

One of the best things to come out of this is no one dares keeping appointments who are full of cold any more . I am not missing people Walking in and saying “ sorry I’m full of cold” when clearly they are not sorry.

These people do not live in the same world as us, it is that simple. I am prone to catching colds. I sometimes used to get comments from the more middle class of the people I worked with about spreading germs, never the more working class. The fact is that if I took a week off every time I had a cold I would be unemployable. These comments come from the very same Tories who have been removing employees rights since forever, constantly tell us that all we need to do in an age of spiralling living costs and inequality is work harder and stop being malingerers! The hypocrisy and utter lack of any awareness is, unfortunately, completely normal.

Have the Tories forgotten it was only a few years ago they were trying to stop people taking so much sick leave
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/229540/Major-crackdown-on-sick-note-Britain
That might explain where some of this culture comes from

I'm very lucky with my work as they're accepting of my medical condition and why I will be off more than other people. If someone is snotty/coughing/sore throat, I sit in the corridor rather than the office. I catch everything and shielding has been bliss not having constant infections
Previous job I was asked if my cauda equina surgery was really an emergency
My union rep "well that depends if you wanted her to be able to walk or not"

Well, it s a bit of both.

Certainly it will work well if those who can work from home do so when they have a cold.

Our sickness notification requires you to phone in. Our local hospital has abysmal phone reception in the acute assessment ward. The two things are incompatible.
I don't think anyone has raised signing on. Presumably it's fine to spread any old illness whilst doing that.

He’s right though. For a lot of people it’s not possible in practice to not attend because of a cold, however, for many people who have the ability to work from home it is. We have discussed this in my workplace a few months back and it has changed for us, no more going to the office if you are I’ll, stay home and work from home. If everyone that can wfh did this it would reduce the viruses and bugs circulating. Then employers of people who can’t wfh (and schools) should look at how best to manage potentially infectious people

If I dont work I dont get paid.
If my child is too sick for school and I cant work I dont get paid.
Unless I'm off long enough to self certify for ssp, which has happened twice in my working life, once for mental health problem and once for women's problem.
Last 4 years ive had one day sick for migraine.
I need to work to make money to pay bills and buy food.
I cant afford to be sick and the idea of taking a days pay cut for a sniffle is frankly ridiculous and laughable.

I get 10 days sick in 12 rolling months until I get dragged before a disciplinary. I have two conditions that are disability related, one of which is noted for regular debilitating flare ups. We are not allowed to work from home if we're ill (pre and after COVID). If we get sent home by management it counts as a full day sick even if we're debt home an hour before our clock off time. It soon adds up.

@MrsWooster

So teachers, who (in normal years) get approximately 5000 colds per year from the children, should take time off each time? Can Mr Hancock undertake to inform SLTs that they should not institue disciplinary proceedings after three absences for any reason in a given period?

This!

I had two days off last year with a sickness and diarrhoea bug...8 months later I had 1 day off with migraine (flashing lights, vomiting, dizzy...no, I can't drive an hour to work..) and then three months later I had another day off because I cut myself very badly and needed to go get stitches.

SLT were concerned at my absence levels and there are forms to sign staying you agree your attendance will improve with immediate effect.

This also happens to staff with long term health issues and on going problems. SLT are reassuring and tell you it's just the system...Don't worry. But of course you do. So the next time you feel ill you drag yourself in.

@chomalungma

I haven't heard of the Bradford score before

www.bradfordfactorcalculator.com/

Concern (BF 45): Sufficient days for a manager to show concern and advise on possible disciplinary of financial actions, should more absences occur during an identified period.
Concern (BF 100): Sufficient days for a manager to start disciplinary action (oral warning, written warning, formal monitoring etc)
Concern (BF 900): Sufficient days for a manager to consider dismissal

Looks harsh - especially if it looks at unplanned absences.

I could see you could have fun with Excel doing this.

I’m a teacher and my LEA uses the Bradford score to monitor our attendance.

8 years ago I raved disciplinary action as I awaited surgery. I only managed to have the action cancelled by organising an appointment with Occupational Health who the. deemed my condition to be covered by the disability act.

Faved not raved.

I definitely could not have raved!

Faced 😩

Oh and the Return to Work interview after my miscarriage was also “fun”.

I agree with the concept but the reality is, it is frowned upon at work if you’re off with say a cold.

It’s true though, if the person coughing, sneezing and spluttering everywhere just stayed at home for a couple of days, there’s a good chance it wouldn’t spread through the rest of the office.

But no no, you’ve always got the ‘never had a day off sick in 30 years’. Well that’s lovely, but then you pass it to everyone else 🙄