to tell Matt Hancock what happens if you don't come into work or school because you have a sniffle?

[chomalungma]

He is surprised by people who go to work (pre pandemic) if they have a sniffle or are feeling a bit run down because they should be at home and not spread any illness. He would like to use the diagnostic capacity build up to test for other illnesses.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55061543

I know what happens at some work places if you are off everytime you have a sniffle. Your sickness records gets investigated.

Same with schools. Does he have any idea how schools frown upon children taking time off?

"Why in Britain do we think it's acceptable to soldier on and go into work if you have flu symptoms or a runny nose, thus making your colleagues ill?

"I think that's something that is going to have to change.

"If you have, in future, flu-like symptoms, you should get a test for it and find out what's wrong with you, and if you need to stay at home to protect others, then you should stay at home.

"We are peculiarly unusual and outliers in soldiering on and still going to work, and it kind of being the culture that 'as long as you can get out of bed you still should get into work'. That should change

I get both sides of it.

When DD was a toddler she (and therefore we) got everything that was going, and consequently DP had a year when she kept being off sick, and she did get investigated for it. Her line manager was really quite sceptical that you'd catch things off a child constantly (I don't think the line manager has children!).

It's funny that now, under covid, we've barely had a sniffle since March and you can really see the difference it makes.

If I honestly believed Hancock were advocating for educating employers about illness and encouraging people into low-level preventative measures (like not sneezing all over your colleagues!), then I'd be all for this.

But I suspect he is just trying to put the blame on individuals without wanting to invest in real change, as usual.

@DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon

Hes not really suprised

And hes right we shouldnt be going to work when ill. Hes also right somethings got to change. The culture of going to work unless your dieing needs to change and employers need to be more understanding of sickness. I dont think hes quite saying what you think

I agree with this.

It's a really difficult situation, to be fair.
I kept working until I collapsed, literally, I got taken to hospital in an ambulance.

I was working so not to let my colleagues down. And not to be seen as weak, and cos I didnt realise how ill I actually was.

My company has a policy of paying for 6 days sick a year. Which is v generous in my industry, most places pay nothing.
I had to take 5 days off, due to being in hospital.
So now if I have more than 1 more day off in 12 months, I wont get paid.
So why would I take time off? I need to pay my bills, feed my children etc.
I know there is SSP, but that's v low, and only kicks in after 3 days.

It's called privilege.
He just doesn't get it and never will.

Well we do it because we have real jobs.

I got laughed at on the Corona board several months ago when i said previous and current Tory policies are helping to spread Covid.

I agree with him but sickness policies don't allow for it. We'd all be on disciplinary and end up being sacked.

If this is what they want then employment law and dismissal due to absences and illhealth need to be revisited.

@DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon

What do you think I think he is saying?

I think he is saying that the culture of going to work when you are ill needs to change because it spreads illness around.

@MercyBooth

I got laughed at on the Corona board several months ago when i said previous and current Tory policies are helping to spread Covid.

I said that at the start of the pandemic.

For God's sake, his own Department penalises staff if they take more than a certain amount of time off sick!

I agree with him. There's a difference between a sniffles, or the tail end of a cold and that early stage of infection when you are feverish and feel terrible.

I have one colleague who's a fucker for coming in sick, sitting coughing and sneezing at us all for a couple of hours before announcing that he "just cant manage" and buggering off home again. But which time of course we've all got it.

I usually would opt to work from home on days when I felt under the weather anyway but appreciate that's not possible in all jobs. I would certainly keep kids off if there's online learning options as part of the culture change. Teachers upload lesson plans to website in the morning.

I do agree that our culture on this point is toxic and unhealthy. I do think it should change.

But that will only happen if the government addresses the structural factors creating and reinforcing that culture. Which seems unlikely since they're responsible for most of them.

I always find it sad that people find it normal that being ill is something you can and should expect to be sacked over. That is twisted and I would like to see it change.

(And being disabled offers no protection from that - if your disability is inconvenient to the "needs of the business" then you go in the dustbin. And get to enjoy the government deliberately impoverishing you as punishment for the terrible crime of being a disabled person. )

I do see his point, its utterly crazy that even a year ago we considered it totally normal for upper respiratory viruses to sweep over whole workplaces and we'd all just keep trooping in to fill our seats, feeling like shit. Other countries really don't do this. But its so ingrained in British culture, so much needs to change before it stops

Agree with many others
We use Bradford scale
Limited sick pay
SSP far too low and doesn’t kick in soon enough
We deal with people in crisis - if we are off sick they suffer more

@Letseatgrandma

I presume they will be scrapping the ridiculous pupil attendance requirements in schools now then?!

Special assemblies and certificates for those with 100% attendance?
End of term outings for those with 100% attendance to the local fun fair?

I will be pleased to see the back of all that and look forward to the announcement from Gavin Williamson.

I don’t have children and this gives me the rage!

@JaceLancs

Agree with many others We use Bradford scale Limited sick pay SSP far too low and doesn’t kick in soon enough We deal with people in crisis - if we are off sick they suffer more

Bradford scale is pretty evil IMHO

@Thecazelets

In the NHS itself 3 episodes of sickness absence over a year triggers a review (even if each episode is just a day) so the culture of going in unless you physically can't is embedded. And that's for people in secure jobs with proper sick pay. Perhaps Hancock hasn't heard about the steep rise in zero hours contracts under the Tories

Two episodes or more than ten days in schools.

Including if you are sent home by management because you're so ill.

@ReggaetonLente

I do see his point, its utterly crazy that even a year ago we considered it totally normal for upper respiratory viruses to sweep over whole workplaces and we'd all just keep trooping in to fill our seats, feeling like shit. Other countries really don't do this. But its so ingrained in British culture, so much needs to change before it stops

It is bonkers.

But does he even know this stuff?

mobile.twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1331268549944496128

Schools push attendance because of Ofsted. It's one of the things that they look for.

If you're not in school, you're not learning. If children have poor attendance we need to know why as it could be a safeguarding issue.

It's a balance I suppose.

Clearly the change in culture needs to come from the very top, the government and their ministries, e.g. education, health and the NHS.

Lead by example, government, and make it feasible for people to do what you are asking them to do and instigate change from the top down (NHS sickness policies, school attendance policies etc).

I haven't heard of the Bradford score before

www.bradfordfactorcalculator.com/

Concern (BF 45): Sufficient days for a manager to show concern and advise on possible disciplinary of financial actions, should more absences occur during an identified period.
Concern (BF 100): Sufficient days for a manager to start disciplinary action (oral warning, written warning, formal monitoring etc)
Concern (BF 900): Sufficient days for a manager to consider dismissal

Looks harsh - especially if it looks at unplanned absences.

I could see you could have fun with Excel doing this.

Well, that's a lovely idea now.

So there would be almost no school from mid-September until Easter because most children and Teachers will have continuous colds.

The NHS will be closed for the whole of winter, which we all know starts on the 2nd August and ends on the 31st of July. Because Staffing.

I do actually agree with him in principle that no, you shouldn't be working or out in public if you have an infection you are likely to spread to others. But whilst people are disciplined for sick records, people in low wage jobs are unpaid and parents of children not at school are threatened with fines, social care and worse it's not going to happen.

The Bradford score is a really shitty way of looking at absences - basically it punishes employees who try to come back to work sooner than they should after an absence, if they then need to take further time off, because if the way the score is calculated.
It favours long-term absence over short-term, so it's almost as if you have to plan to be ill.
No-one with a conscience does that, so you get caught out either way.
I had some absences a few years back due to mental health issues after my DF died. My score was astronomical. My line-manager cheerfully informed me that they could start action, but wouldn't, given my circumstances.
Hardly helpful, as it made me very wary of having any further time off, even if I needed it. (And I didn't go off sick for trivial reasons in the first place - it was all certified by a GP.)

We are not bloody outliers!

I work in an international role and the only people equally prone to taking time off sick than us are mainland Europeans. My staff in Asia, Africa & the Americas tend to work through anything.