To complain to the class teacher?

[Whatisthisfuckery]

For the last few weeks DS has been complaining that in a certain lesson he has been seated next to a student who, quite frankly, is a pain in the arse. According to DS he’s always talking, messing around and drawing attention to himself, and the poor behaviour is preventing DS from concentrating on his own work. DS is a good student, he gets good marks, always does his work and I’ve never had a bad word from school about his conduct.

I’ve been telling DS that if he wants to be moved then he needs to tell the teacher. DS is a bit short on confidence so needs a lot of encouragement and reassurance in order to speak up for himself. Today he’s come home and told me he told the teacher that this kid was preventing him from being able to concentrate and he’d asked her if he could be moved. The teacher refused, her response was, ‘I’ve sat x there because I know you two (DS and another female student) are sensible.’

I am bloody annoyed about this. Well behaved students aren’t there to help teachers manage the behaviour of more challenging students, and why should my DS suffer because the teacher wants him to act as a buffer for someone elses disruptive behaviour? Should DS start playing up in lessons so he can get moved next to some less disruptive kids? Not only that, the teacher has refused to listen to DS’s POV and refused his request because it’s inconvenient for her to do so.

AIBU to complain to the teacher about this?

How disruptive is disruptive in this case OP? That really is the most pertinent point here.

As a teacher it's so hard to deal with a disruptive child, and where to place them - but it's a REALLY bad idea to use another child as an airbag to diffuse their behaviour. It's so unfair. For this reason I always switch children round every half term.

Definitely raise it with the teacher!

@HollyGoLoudly1 I'm sure this will not be well received but in my opinion if there truly isn't a space within the school for extremely disruptive children then they should be sent home. This should be a last resort if all other efforts to manage their behaviour have failed. They can be taught in a separate environment.

I agree with a PP that a lot of the behavioural problems stem from poor parenting. Children raised in homes where they are not taught to respect others and completely lack any kind of discipline.

Rather than seeking to address those issues there seems to be a tendency to instead diagnose every other poorly behaved child with additional needs and claim on that basis it is wicked and exclusionary to ask them to leave the classroom because they cannot help their behaviour. Meanwhile it's okay to have the education of the remaining students in the class completely disrupted.

There is no correlation between academic achievement and behaviour.

A child with SEN may or may not have behaviour issues in the classroom.

A child with behaviour problems doesn't necessarily have SEN.

If a child doesn't complain about the disruptive person sitting next to them it doesn't mean that they are coping. In fact I think some teachers gave a special radar for knowing which children without behaviour issues are least likely to complain.

Sitting next to a disruptive person doesn't build resilience. Adults wouldn't be told to suck up some of the more extreme behaviours that some kids have to endure. Many kids have siblings so by secondary age will be used to low level annoyances so don't need to suck up extreme behaviours.

@sst1234 my "disruptive" child in school is much better behaved and able to cope at home. Often the case for children like her. Nothing to do with discipline.

@Feministicon can you explain your question again? I don't understand it.

@CurlyhairedAssassin

I think on the whole the other children accept him for who he is. He has friends, he gets on well with others. Some join him in his chaos and others have a calming influence on him.

Sadly it's teachers that are the issue. Not all of them of course, he's had some fantastic teachers.

His EHCP has only been in place for a few months, I'm currently fighting to make sure his school are following it. So far it seems some teachers do, while others prefer to follow their usual behaviour policy (the two contradict each other!) So of course that means he has to adapt to each different teacher, remember which teachers will allow his coping strategies and which won't ... something he's not great at.

[quote Eastie77]@HollyGoLoudly1 I'm sure this will not be well received but in my opinion if there truly isn't a space within the school for extremely disruptive children then they should be sent home. This should be a last resort if all other efforts to manage their behaviour have failed. They can be taught in a separate environment.

I agree with a PP that a lot of the behavioural problems stem from poor parenting. Children raised in homes where they are not taught to respect others and completely lack any kind of discipline.

Rather than seeking to address those issues there seems to be a tendency to instead diagnose every other poorly behaved child with additional needs and claim on that basis it is wicked and exclusionary to ask them to leave the classroom because they cannot help their behaviour. Meanwhile it's okay to have the education of the remaining students in the class completely disrupted.

[/quote]
So by your logic (which I dont necessarily agree with in relation to parenting ) if a child isn't behaving well we send them home to the parents who aren't managing them in the first place?

[quote notputtingthetreeupyet]@CurlyhairedAssassin

I think on the whole the other children accept him for who he is. He has friends, he gets on well with others. Some join him in his chaos and others have a calming influence on him.

Sadly it's teachers that are the issue. Not all of them of course, he's had some fantastic teachers.

His EHCP has only been in place for a few months, I'm currently fighting to make sure his school are following it. So far it seems some teachers do, while others prefer to follow their usual behaviour policy (the two contradict each other!) So of course that means he has to adapt to each different teacher, remember which teachers will allow his coping strategies and which won't ... something he's not great at. [/quote]
Some teachers do have to follow the policy regardless as this is often dictated by the PT of the subject. I've seen this in practice.

[quote Wheresmykimchi]@Feministicon can you explain your question again? I don't understand it.[/quote]
Of course ☺️ Which part?

[quote LD22020]@sst1234 my "disruptive" child in school is much better behaved and able to cope at home. Often the case for children like her. Nothing to do with discipline.[/quote]
Why is she disruptive if you don’t mind me asking?

@Feministicon

How disruptive is disruptive in this case OP? That really is the most pertinent point here.

Very good point.

"Chatting, messing around and drawing attention to themselves" can mean different things to different people based on their experiences,including for school staff.

My old school was totally shit and the golden rule was "the less you disturb SLT ,the better teacher you are" so a lot of shit went on unchecked. The things some children get sent out of class/to the head at DD's school are very low level. Our head would end up having her own class if we applied the same rules. My current school strikes a reasonable balance overall, but we're getting stretched too thin atm due to Covid.

Couldn’t agree more @ComeOnBabyHauntMyBubble, whispering or throwing a paper aeroplane for example or refusing to work and calling the teacher a cunt are polar opposites and common sense needs to be applied

@feministicon She is autistic, has adhd, spd, auditory processing disorder, dld, a speech disorder and Hypermobility. When she's in the full classroom it's effectively like putting her in a room full of kids speaking a foreign language.

She does have a 1-1 so doesn't do prolonged periods in the classroom but she does have ZERO concept of personal space, zero concept of others body language or recognising that they don't like something. She is ridiculously impulsive so can blurt out.

She has never deliberately hurt another child, she just doesn't get it and doesn't get that people don't like to be stroked etc. She struggles to initiate interaction so will usually tap or grab to do so. She hates the fire alarm and the sound of the doors slamming so when one of those happen she really randomly makes a noisy reaction. Not prolonged but quite sudden.

She only does 3 hours a day in school because she can't cope with it. She does 15 mins out of the classroom every hour and more if she isn't coping but when she's in the classroom She does have to sit next to someone.

Her table of 4 is her, 3 kids and her 1-1 next to her. The kids on her table are quiet and calm but do need a bit of additional support so they benefit from her 1-1 being there and if she's helping them a moment it does usually leave a couple of minutes with mine not the 1-1s highest priority which is fine.

She desperately needs specialist but she is also ridiculously clever. We can't get a single specialist to agree to take her. Its absolutely insane.

She's also a child that frequently gets " oh she doesn't look ..." or "but she talks" so to parents she looks like a naughty child.

[quote LD22020]@feministicon She is autistic, has adhd, spd, auditory processing disorder, dld, a speech disorder and Hypermobility. When she's in the full classroom it's effectively like putting her in a room full of kids speaking a foreign language.

She does have a 1-1 so doesn't do prolonged periods in the classroom but she does have ZERO concept of personal space, zero concept of others body language or recognising that they don't like something. She is ridiculously impulsive so can blurt out.

She has never deliberately hurt another child, she just doesn't get it and doesn't get that people don't like to be stroked etc. She struggles to initiate interaction so will usually tap or grab to do so. She hates the fire alarm and the sound of the doors slamming so when one of those happen she really randomly makes a noisy reaction. Not prolonged but quite sudden.

She only does 3 hours a day in school because she can't cope with it. She does 15 mins out of the classroom every hour and more if she isn't coping but when she's in the classroom She does have to sit next to someone.

Her table of 4 is her, 3 kids and her 1-1 next to her. The kids on her table are quiet and calm but do need a bit of additional support so they benefit from her 1-1 being there and if she's helping them a moment it does usually leave a couple of minutes with mine not the 1-1s highest priority which is fine.

She desperately needs specialist but she is also ridiculously clever. We can't get a single specialist to agree to take her. Its absolutely insane.[/quote]
There is a severe, depressing and heartbreaking lack of specialist provision, even more so for children with high needs that are also high ability. The options are highly unsuitable a lot of the time.

[quote LD22020]@feministicon She is autistic, has adhd, spd, auditory processing disorder, dld, a speech disorder and Hypermobility. When she's in the full classroom it's effectively like putting her in a room full of kids speaking a foreign language.

She does have a 1-1 so doesn't do prolonged periods in the classroom but she does have ZERO concept of personal space, zero concept of others body language or recognising that they don't like something. She is ridiculously impulsive so can blurt out.

She has never deliberately hurt another child, she just doesn't get it and doesn't get that people don't like to be stroked etc. She struggles to initiate interaction so will usually tap or grab to do so. She hates the fire alarm and the sound of the doors slamming so when one of those happen she really randomly makes a noisy reaction. Not prolonged but quite sudden.

She only does 3 hours a day in school because she can't cope with it. She does 15 mins out of the classroom every hour and more if she isn't coping but when she's in the classroom She does have to sit next to someone.

Her table of 4 is her, 3 kids and her 1-1 next to her. The kids on her table are quiet and calm but do need a bit of additional support so they benefit from her 1-1 being there and if she's helping them a moment it does usually leave a couple of minutes with mine not the 1-1s highest priority which is fine.

She desperately needs specialist but she is also ridiculously clever. We can't get a single specialist to agree to take her. Its absolutely insane.[/quote]
Of course she does and she has every right to, I wouldn’t call that kind of behaviour disruptive in the sense that she should ever be removed and all children need to learn there is a whole world out there of people with differing needs and the onus is on them to learn to be respectful of others and also to self regulate. I hope you find a specialist place for her and I wish it didn’t have to be a struggle.

@LD22020

She's also a child that frequently gets " oh she doesn't look ..." or "but she talks" so to parents she looks like a naughty child.

Then they are imbeciles, sorry 😊

@ComeOnBabyHauntMyBubble her high ability is the single biggest barrier to specialist provision. Specialist schools have been abundantly clear they can't provide for her ability. The second barrier is that she is a girl. Getting specialist places for girls locally is a nightmare as it's "no suitable peer group". In SEMH schools two have been abundantly clear she would be at risk from the other students due to being potentially 1 girl in a class of 10 violent boys.

Her school refuses to exclude her from the classroom, they want her spending the majority of her time in the classroom as they are an excellent inclusive school but it does mean low level disruption. Her 1-1 does remove her if it goes beyond the low level stuff but I know many children don't have the benefit of a 1-1. The school did an excellent job of getting suitable funding from the LA seeing as even the LA acknowledge she needs specialist but no money can get rid of 20 kids from her class and the mainstream environment.

@Feministicon I can't quote but 'course if they can they will access more with a teacher if they are able to get them to actually do anything, or are they simply learning via osmosis'

Surely if your ds is in year 8, they wouldn’t be next to the same pupil all day every day? Don’t they mix in their bubbles for different lessons?
I wouldn’t complain. You’ll look pathetic -
& make your ds stand out for all the wrong reasons. He needs to manage distractions.

Well, I've just read this entire thread, and I couldn't be more depressed.

If I wasn't already retired I'd be ready to hand in my notice. Clearly, some parents with no qualifications, no teaching experience and no extensive training in behaviour management know how to do my job FAR better than I do, and can magic up a support person for every poorly behaved kid, supervision for the ones that are removed from the room, and extendable classrooms, with extra tables parachuted in so that no well-behaved child should ever be within three metres of a badly behaved one.

It's clear that those parent 'teachers' have no interest at all in the child with behaviour problems actually learning anything or having their behaviour issues improved. Only the passive intelligent child is worthy of their attention and empathy.

Seriously, this has to be one of the worst threads I've read for sheer ignorance of what being in a classroom is like.

Incidentally, I was the parent of a child who was the 'good example'. At parents' evening, I politely mentioned that she wasn't happy next to a tricky child. The teacher was glad I mentioned it and said that she'd be changing the seating at half term (a week or so later). So it's not about going in all guns blazing. Just be a human being.

I’m referring to the students that are being extremely disruptive including by refusing to work, shouting, swearing etc. I don’t see how they could possibly be seen to be accessing anything.

[quote LD22020]@ComeOnBabyHauntMyBubble her high ability is the single biggest barrier to specialist provision. Specialist schools have been abundantly clear they can't provide for her ability. The second barrier is that she is a girl. Getting specialist places for girls locally is a nightmare as it's "no suitable peer group". In SEMH schools two have been abundantly clear she would be at risk from the other students due to being potentially 1 girl in a class of 10 violent boys.

Her school refuses to exclude her from the classroom, they want her spending the majority of her time in the classroom as they are an excellent inclusive school but it does mean low level disruption. Her 1-1 does remove her if it goes beyond the low level stuff but I know many children don't have the benefit of a 1-1. The school did an excellent job of getting suitable funding from the LA seeing as even the LA acknowledge she needs specialist but no money can get rid of 20 kids from her class and the mainstream environment.[/quote]
It makes me sad to think that refusing to send out a child like your DD isn’t the norm 😨

But if the price of expanding the sector of specialist schools was that all PGCE students and teachers in mainstream applying for UPS had to do a short rotation at local specialist schools

I think those children would deserve far better than inexperienced PGCE trainees that would change every 5 minutes...