Would you say/do anything about benefit fraud?

[Lucidas]

Disclaimer: anything I know about this person's financial situation comes from information they have shared with me directly (not speculation).

I have a family member who has been running a business for four years without declaring it as income - about £800-1000 a month, so below the tax threshold I think. Her partner has relatively low wages, so they claim a substantial amount in tax credits each month. She's told me and other family members that she has no intention to declare her earnings because their overall income would drop significantly. And because of various other justifications (it's nothing compared to corporate tax avoidance etc). Her partner works the occasional cash in hand weekend job, but it's not as sustained as this. They have six children.

They're not in a financially difficult situation. Partly because they haven't had a mortgage/rent to pay for the last decade, they've been able to put aside about 50k in savings which they've used to buy a larger house for their family, with extension planned etc. They're not wealthy, but they're certainly not struggling.

What would you do? Upfront, I have no intention of reporting this, sabotaging the family relationship or just making things difficult for her children. But I'd like to know what the real risks are of actually being caught by HMRC, and the implications. If so I would seriously warn her of it (although she is incredibly stubborn and probably wouldn't listen). Or would you just stay out of it completely?

I wouldn't. They will get their comeuppance one day. I'm sure they are aware that what they are doing is wrong.

@user1471457751

Mistakes by dwp wouldn't count as fraud by the claimant. Fraud is a deliberate act using dishonesty to gain an advantage. *@PerseverancePays*

When the ‘ billions in benefits fraud ‘ are screamed by the makeitupasyougoalong papers they don’t mention that 99.5% of the billions are dwp mistakes.

I'm self employed and hate being compared to those who op is describing.

No one likes a grass - oh come on, have some standards, if it's wrong, then it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing it.

It does become fraud if they make a mistake, you realise but don't inform them to get the mistake correct and hope you get away with it. That is still dishonest.

I must be one of a few who still have morals and standards but then I do care about stuff and actually do give a damn as otherwise where would you draw the line? How much crap would become normalised? Then when the crap hits the fan how would you justify turning a blind eye? I wouldn't want to be judged for allowing wrong things to happen.

@salcombebabe

They could still be entitled to claim tax credits if their overall income is low - do you actually know all the figures involved?

No I don’t fully know all the figure (although I could guess at her DH’s wages) - I’m just going by what she herself has told me, which is that they would lose a significant amount of tax credits if they declared her business.

Not my first post obv (name changed).

I searched on here and read a thread on here about this topic, and saw the ensuing panic from OP... Just not pleasant but I have no idea about the likelihood of getting caught.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/3207504-Caught-for-Fraud-and-arrested-yesterday

I am a private tenant in a small council block. 1 of the flats is empty because the people on the lease are living elsewhere, another has illegal subletters in it. I have reported this to the council more than once, as our council is one of those, shipping people in need of housing, hours away. Has anyone done anything? Nope, I suspect our council is rotten to the core, itself.

When the ‘ billions in benefits fraud ‘ are screamed by the makeitupasyougoalong papers they

are full of shit.

@SerendipityJane

When the ‘ billions in benefits fraud ‘ are screamed by the makeitupasyougoalong papers they

are full of shit.

Thank you.

Didn’t get my numbers right but the gist is spot on!

That family are supporting six children as best they can, I’d let them get on with it.

It was their choice to have six kids. If they have to commit fraud in order to afford to live, they obviously can't afford to have six kids.

Coat and cloth springs to mind.

I know someone who got reported and ended up getting sent to prison for benefit fraud.

Personally I wouldn’t want to report someone and be responsible for them receiving prison time. I do think they should have to pay back what they’ve claimed dishonestly but I wouldn’t want to risk breaking up someone’s family if they happened to get a hefty sentence!

And this is why benefit claimants have a reputation for taking the piss. It is not unusual to know someone who is defrauding the system - lots of people do it, at the expense of of those who actually pay into the system. Protecting them is just making it worse for for genuine claimants because the general public’s attitude has become hardened towards welfare in general, as we have seen since 2010.
The flat screen tv analogy may be outdated but it has definitely morphed into this new breed of piss taker

I agree.
We all suffer from benefit fraud - people who don't pay in to the tax system, and just keep taking out have an effect on all of us. I want our NHS, schools, old age care etc etc to thrive - which it won't if people don't pay their taxes (and with 6 kids, they are taking more out of the health and education system than most of us).

I'd not hesitate to report benefit fraud.

I agree. We all suffer from benefit fraud - people who don't pay in to the tax system, and just keep taking out have an effect on all of us. I want our NHS, schools, old age care etc etc to thrive - which it won't if people don't pay their taxes (and with 6 kids, they are taking more out of the health and education system than most of us).

Assuming you can see the graphic of statistics about fraud posted, what number would you think best to start with ? The biggest. Or the smallest ? When did you become a bully ?

When did you become a bully?

Get a grip - are you defrauding the system?

There are lots of things taxpayers money is misused on in my view. I'd speak up about them all to the appropriate place. Starting with who I'd vote for.

Defrauding the system is defrauding the general public. I'd report any fraud I knew about - insurance fraud (it puts my payments up), benefits fraud (it stops the disabled, ill and needy getting what they need to meet their needs).

Saying their is fraud elsewhere doesn't justify more fraud.

A close family member was a benefits fraud investigator for a while for the local authority. He’d sit outside people’s houses taking photos etc, interview them under caution. In the two years he was there he saved them over £2mil by stopping fraudulent claims. Pretty satisfying work!

I'd do sweet fuck all

@Crumbleandcake

No one likes a grass op.

What a fabulously working class response.

Even the word "grass" is just an immature response.

We have laws in this country that should be upheld. I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort. To take them fraudulently is appalling and absolutely should be reported like any other crime.

Care to explain the working class comment? Ignorant twat.

@StoneofDestiny

When did you become a bully?

Get a grip - are you defrauding the system?

There are lots of things taxpayers money is misused on in my view. I'd speak up about them all to the appropriate place. Starting with who I'd vote for.

Defrauding the system is defrauding the general public. I'd report any fraud I knew about - insurance fraud (it puts my payments up), benefits fraud (it stops the disabled, ill and needy getting what they need to meet their needs).

Saying their is fraud elsewhere doesn't justify more fraud.

You haven't answered the question. You were shown a David and a Goliath and chose to pick on David.

So when did you become a bully ?

By the way, don't ever imagine that reporting benefit fraud somehow makes the lives of the disabled better, as it doesn't. Treating the disabled like shit and hoping they stay well out of sight is official government policy by action.

The only system defrauding I am involved in, is helping as many people as possible claim every single penny to which they are entitled. You know - that £16 billion you managed hard not to see.

At the end of the day benefit cheating is fraud and theft. If she gets caught she'll be charged with fraud.

Saying there is fraud elsewhere doesn't justify more fraud

Exactly - I don't condone tax evasion or fraud. The two are not mutually exclusive, just because I think people should report Dave from down the road who's claiming the full range of benefits, working FT on a cash in hand basis and has saved 50k as a result doesn't mean that I don't think that big businesses or wealthy individuals shouldn't also be reported for tax evasion. Both are wrong - the fact that the total value of one is greater doesn't make it less wrong.

Insurance fraud also costs billions, it's estimated by major insurers that up to 70% of claims include some element of fraud or exaggeration.

I wouldn't report but id this was a close friend or relative I think I would try abs have a frank conversation about whether this actually amounts to fraud and if it does are they aware of likely consequences.

You haven't answered the question. You were shown a David and a Goliath and chose to pick on David

Crap - I answered. The Goliaths get dealt with any way I can, by not voting for them, by not buying from their businesses etc, by complaining to my MP etc.

The only system defrauding I am involved in, is helping as many people as possible claim every single penny to which they are entitled

Then you are not defrauding then. Though if you think it is, maybe get some more training*

I'd report any fraudulent activity.

By the way, don't ever imagine that reporting benefit fraud somehow makes the lives of the disabled better, as it doesn't

Sadly, I don't need to know anything from you about how the disabled are treated. I have plenty enough direct experience on that.

I would happily report both suspected benefit fraud and tax evasion.

I don't understand the figures here

Untaxed income - £1000 per month
taxed income at minimum wage - £1400
Tax credits - MAXIMUM £800

= £3200

With 6 CHILDREN and no mortgage or rent I still don't see how they've afforded £50,000 in savings (!) plus an extension (upwards of £30,000 - even 'cheap' extensions are 50k plus)

Sounds like UTTER BOLLOCKS to me

I really need to meet them so they can give me tips on living endlessly on fuck all...

@LaurieFairyCake

I don't understand the figures here

Untaxed income - £1000 per month
taxed income at minimum wage - £1400
Tax credits - MAXIMUM £800

= £3200

With 6 CHILDREN and no mortgage or rent I still don't see how they've afforded £50,000 in savings (!) plus an extension (upwards of £30,000 - even 'cheap' extensions are 50k plus)

Sounds like UTTER BOLLOCKS to me

I really need to meet them so they can give me tips on living endlessly on fuck all...

To clarify, the extension isn't on top of the savings but factored in.

I didn't say her husband was on minimum wage. 22k a year maybe? She has also said that they have barely touched any of the child benefit they've received over the last 15 or so years (goes into a separate account) and became part of their savings - I've no idea how much that comes to.

This isn't bollocks but you can think that way if you want...