Would you say/do anything about benefit fraud?

[Lucidas]

Disclaimer: anything I know about this person's financial situation comes from information they have shared with me directly (not speculation).

I have a family member who has been running a business for four years without declaring it as income - about £800-1000 a month, so below the tax threshold I think. Her partner has relatively low wages, so they claim a substantial amount in tax credits each month. She's told me and other family members that she has no intention to declare her earnings because their overall income would drop significantly. And because of various other justifications (it's nothing compared to corporate tax avoidance etc). Her partner works the occasional cash in hand weekend job, but it's not as sustained as this. They have six children.

They're not in a financially difficult situation. Partly because they haven't had a mortgage/rent to pay for the last decade, they've been able to put aside about 50k in savings which they've used to buy a larger house for their family, with extension planned etc. They're not wealthy, but they're certainly not struggling.

What would you do? Upfront, I have no intention of reporting this, sabotaging the family relationship or just making things difficult for her children. But I'd like to know what the real risks are of actually being caught by HMRC, and the implications. If so I would seriously warn her of it (although she is incredibly stubborn and probably wouldn't listen). Or would you just stay out of it completely?

Report it! Years ago I knew of 2 people both self employed who declared to tax credits their income was lower than it was so they got more in tax credits. Didn’t have it in me either to report them but I’d do it now! Cheeky bastards.

99.5% of all benefit fraud is the mistakes that the benefit office makes. I can’t post you a link, as sadly I don’t know how to to one, but it comes up regularly in Guardian articles.
When my daughter was on working tax credits and had help with her rent, it happened more than once. They would write to her and say oh we overpaid you TWO YEARS AGO AND YOU OWE US £3000 SO WE WILL BE TAKING IT OUT OF YOUR WAGES AT £250 A MONTH! She seemed to be always paying back for mistakes they’d made. And she didn’t over egg her application, she’s very careful to only apply for what she’s entitled to. All their mistakes are listed as fraud. The actual fraud like in the op is minimal.
That family are supporting six children as best they can, I’d let them get on with it.

@Crumbleandcake

No one likes a grass op.

What a fabulously working class response.

Even the word "grass" is just an immature response.

We have laws in this country that should be upheld. I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort. To take them fraudulently is appalling and absolutely should be reported like any other crime.

WTF? at the WC slur.

I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort.

Yeah. Though shit if you have a lifelong disability, eh ?

No I wouldn't.

Does the money She earn from the business get paid into a bank account? I’m sure the hmrc can do checks. Is the other fifty k in a bank account. Does she have business insurance. What if she was caught much later on ? Would the repercussions be greater then in terms of any overpayments? Is she getting council tax benefits And free prescriptions , dental and opticians. Cash in hand just to pay bills or have extra food on table is one thing. Maybe It’s up to you what you wanna do. I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes many years later if she was caught.

Benefit fraud is seen as an acceptable source of income on here.

And the reason why so many people commit benefit fraud is because they all know that no-one will ever say anything because “you don’t know the circumstances/it’s just one person which doesn’t matter in the scheme of things/they should go after amazon instead.”

While someone might not report benefit fraud, if they were caught and went to prison would you think that was wrong?

I knew someone who committed tax fraud. Earned hundreds of thousands in cash over the years and never paid a penny tax. They caught up with him and the back pay he had to make was astronomical. He owned two properties and he had to sell one of them to cover it.

I also knew someone who defrauded an insurance company. She made a false claim of burglary because she was in so much debt. Unfortunately the insurance company paid out in vouchers only so she didn’t get a penny. I laughed.

This is not just benefit fraud it is also tax evasion...You need to declare your self-employed income no matter how small every year. It pisses me off as someone who is self-employed that people think this is optional...

I would be sympathetic if they did feed to feed their kids but to buy a bigger house?

Seems like they are taking the piss.

@SerendipityJane

I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort.

Yeah. Though shit if you have a lifelong disability, eh ?

Indeed, or you are a carer of a disabled person who has long term care needs. I am a full time carer and get the princely sum of £67.25 a week Carer's Allowance. People like me save the taxpayer BILLIONS. But hey ho, we are all scroungers.

OP (interesting first post btw) - I would just keep out of it tbh. Although it does surprise me that in all the threads like these (that are posted on a regular basis), the fraudster is always so open or even boastful about their fraud.

@Crumbleandcake

No one likes a grass op.

What a fabulously working class response.

Even the word "grass" is just an immature response.

We have laws in this country that should be upheld. I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort. To take them fraudulently is appalling and absolutely should be reported like any other crime.

What do you mean by "working class response"?

At that level I feel it should be reported, it's just not fair.
A single mum earning £20 a week doing a bit of cleaning is ok in my book but the amounts the op mentions are huge.

Presuming that they would not be entitled toTax credits if your sister declared her income, then she is committing fraud. If I was in your situation, I would strongly encourage my sister to contact HMRC and tell them she now has income/they now have increased income. If she didn't then I would threaten to report her.

Those children are not poor and needy. The family has a decent income but are ripping off the state. These things can't be ignored just because some companies aren't paying sufficient tax. HMRC should go after everyone and every company that is cheating the state.

What a fabulously working class response.

I'm working class you snob - and I say report them. It actually pisses me off hearing these stories. I agree it makes a mockery of the genuine claimants of benefits

Mistakes by dwp wouldn't count as fraud by the claimant. Fraud is a deliberate act using dishonesty to gain an advantage. @PerseverancePays

@user1471457751

Mistakes by dwp wouldn't count as fraud by the claimant. Fraud is a deliberate act using dishonesty to gain an advantage. *@PerseverancePays*

Tell that to the people they claw the money back from.

I object to paying into a system where people use benefits for anything other than a temporary last resort.

Unpaid carers, who as a pp said get £67.25 per week in Carer’s Allowance, save the country £133 billion. Perhaps they should spend their time in paid work instead; they would most likely be better off, get a better pension and live longer. Meanwhile they should leave the care to the state.

What should I tell DD to do - go starve? Its not her fault she has a congenital brain abnormality and can never work. There is nothing she would like better, than to have a normal life!

MIL at 94 is also too frail to work. The biggest spending on benefits goes on the state pension.

I am a full time carer and get the princely sum of £67.25 a week Carer's Allowance. People like me save the taxpayer BILLIONS. But hey ho, we are all scroungers.
No-one is referring to carers as scroungers are they? I think the poster meant that unemployed benefits other than for sickness or disability should be temporary. I don't think they meant benefits for those who are too sick to work and are on UC, ESA or PIP or those caring for others should only be on benefits temporarily.

Yes, what do you mean by working class response, pp?

They could still be entitled to claim tax credits if their overall income is low - do you actually know all the figures involved?

I wouldn’t report family but I do think fraud is wrong and stealing from all of us. I don’t agree with making excuses or saying something else is more important. We aren’t talking about something else we are talking about benefit fraud (and tax evasion too in ops example)

I thought you were not entitled to benefits if you have over a certain amount in savings? £16k?

I probably wouldn't report them but would be rather tempted to.

*No one likes a grass op.

What a fabulously working class response.*

actually everybody knows the correct working class response is snitches get stitches

That's disgusting that they were able to save that much money!
I'd report! They give actual people who need the help bad names. I think the more people that report it and don't get looked at as a "grass" or "snitch" the better. Maybe people will think twice about doing then!

@Calmandmeasured1

I am a full time carer and get the princely sum of £67.25 a week Carer's Allowance. People like me save the taxpayer BILLIONS. But hey ho, we are all scroungers. No-one is referring to carers as scroungers are they? I think the poster meant that unemployed benefits other than for sickness or disability should be temporary. I don't think they meant benefits for those who are too sick to work and are on UC, ESA or PIP or those caring for others should only be on benefits temporarily.

So is the implication that there are deserving and undeserving, benefit recipients? I don't ascribe to that view at all.

As for unemployment benefits being temporary – how temporary? And what happens after that "temporary period", do we just let people starve and lose their homes? I don't want to live in a society like that, especially when it is very likely there will be millions more unemployed people soon due to the economic effects of the pandemic.

This is just another benefits bashing thread in disguise.