To say childcare costs are not a 'choice'

[Sabrina124]

I was speaking to a friend of mine, and we were discussing children and the costs of children today. I said the main concern for me is the costs of childcare as it would wipe out half our joint income one way or another. He said that childcare is a 'choice' and it is better for children to be looked after by their parents. His children were looked after by grandma and his wife worked evening jobs to look after theirs.

Ugh. Even if one of us gave up work, it would still obviously wipe out half the income. Which was my point. We don't have grandparents who could help. And my career is not something I can do in the evenings (nor is my husband's). So I don't think there would be much of a 'choice' in childcare costs? My point is the childcare would wipe out half our income whether one of us gave up work or they were in a nursery.

Sorry, just needed to vent as I find it so frustrating. The cost of childcare is the main thing stopping us from having a child and it's quite upsetting tbh.

@Sabrina124
surely the income drop due to childcare is not a choice? Either one salary drops due to staying at home, or half the joint income is wiped due to childcare costs.

neither of those options for us-see above, by working around each other we pay for nursery only one day per week, that's definitely not half of anyone's income, nursery is £73 a day, even five days a week it wouldn't be half of either of our incomes, and that's without taking into account tax free childcare and the discount the nursery do for full time children. Neither of us are high earners by MN standards we both have public sector jobs

I am south east also have a look at busy bees... no where near £60 a day and a very good nursery

Childcare costs whether that be paid childcare or parents reducing hours to care for children is not a choice, it is a consequence (a fact) of having children and should be considered when making the choice to have children.
The method of childcare (parents or paid for) is a choice but both will cost you something. It’s that simple.
Children are a part of life you can either afford or you can’t. It doesn’t mean that in a few years that situation may change and you could afford to do it.

And if childcare costs of approximately £60 a day is half your family income then you must both be in minimum wage jobs. In which case there can be childcare costs help available under universal credit

Well, it is a choice but like anything else, some people have more and better options available to them than others.

Childcare costs aren’t really a choice of the squeezed middle in general (who don’t have family help). But people do it. Flexi working, part time hours (between you), might be an option with a couple/few days at nursery.

We do a combination of the above. We actually had family help at one point (for a day), and honestly, I was relieved when it didn’t work out as an extra day nursery has been far more beneficial in our case.

Yes it costs money. But there is government funding, and it’s not for long. Then you can up your hours and start to earn more in a few years.

Your ‘friend’ is a twat by the way. A smug one - knowing you don’t have much of a choice and parading his wonderful parenting choices about says it all. Get rid.

He said that childcare is a 'choice' and it is better for children to be looked after by their parents. His children were looked after by grandma and his wife worked evening jobs to look after theirs.

He’s speaking from a place of privilege. He hasn’t walked a mile in someone else’s shoes.

Yes it's a choice, same as having children. You either pay for it and work, or you don't. Even if you can't afford not to choose it, it's still obviously a choice.

You live in the South East - that's a choice.

We lived in the South East but could never afford our current lifestyle if we moved back which we couldn't afford to. We live in an area where housing is much, much cheaper - we have a 5 bed detached house which is mortgage free, our lifestyle is very comfortable - but it's a choice we made and we have to accept that there are a lot of things we miss about being in a more 'vibrant and inclusive' area - and job opportunities are very limited here and salaries are well below the national average. But it is a choice we made.

His children were looked after by grandma and his wife worked evening jobs to look after theirs.

So women are running around facilitating him. Did the irony of that not occur to him?

Having the child is the choice.

After that you have a situation where in theory you have choices but in reality if your choice is work or don't feed the child, or don't work and don't keep a roof over your child's head, it's not really a choice.

Your male friend is probably the sort of person who has been given a large amount of money towards a family home by parents and then asks all of his friends why are they still renting and not brought a place of their own, obviously it's because they haven't worked hard enough, childcare costs are different for everyone, some have parents to help, one partner might be a higher earner than the other so one can go part time or give up work where as others will rely on the tax payer for childcare costs.

You live in the South East - that's a choice

100% this, i couldn't afford my lifestyle in the south east.

Well having children is a choice but once they're here they need looking after and that is expensive whether you do it, or use paid childcare.

Dh and I left the SE to be able to afford a family. But that's not necessarily an easy opinion either.

Argh I hate people like this. I have been made to feel so bad that our family don’t want to help out with childcare as most people that do have grandparents or sisters etc that help out can’t understand putting your child in nursery full time. I’ve had comments such as I feel so bad your kids are in nursery in one room all day or can’t believe your parents wouldn’t want to help, my mum absolutely loves looking after the kids and get sad when she doesn’t see them every week.

Some people don’t have a choice other than like you said, nursery, giving up work or asking for part time.

I think people that do have the help a) need to appreciate it and b) not make others feel more guilty than they already do

To somedegree it is. For insatnce you can choose to have a nanny, a nursery or a childminder all cost different prices. Yo may be able to choose to work part time not full time. You may be able to choose not to work. It,s not always a choice but it often is to a degree.

You friend must make your blood boil, OP. I'm sure this is not the only 'interesting' view he has.

Re: choice, I agree with your view, that I've interpreted as: "once you've decided to have a child(ren), if you don't have built in free family childcare, it goes without saying that almost always, family income takes a bit via working capability or childcare costs.

He’s a smug idiot. He only exists because his parents had the privilege of the choice he’s denying you. Presumably sufficient resources were allocated to his parents (probably via one of them working) for them to manage childcare.

Having children should be a choice but not one based on financial position.

I agree with others, once children come along, there are choices but for many people, those choices both result in a big fee or a massive reduction in income.

There are a lot of women who are forced to become sahms that don’t really want to be for financial reasons. Even dropping to part time (which is more likely to be the mother) isn’t great career wise either so a lot of the options that avoid childcare costs early on have longer term financial implications that could last decades. There are also a lot of people who don’t appreciate how lucky they are to have family childcare on tap. The savings and convenience are massive.

It depends on your outgoings I suppose. My grandfather was only a custody officer for the police and my nan didn't work at, she gave up work to stay home and look after me. If your outgoins allow it, it's a choice, if they don't then it's not.

@Dishwashersaurous

But having children is a choice.

And how you choose to fund the responsibility and the costs are also choices.

Where you live, your costs, these are all choices.

I don’t understand why you are upset.

You want children- a choice.

And therefore if that is what you really want- then you will have to make other choices about how to fund it.

One option is for a parent to stop work to look after the children and another option is to pay for childcare. Both are choices

Exactly.

This has always been the way, it's not something only faced by parents in recent times. I'm not sure why people think that everyone had free childcare provided by family members in the past.

When my parents had children in the 1960s, and my mum stopped working when we were little, the cost to them was the loss of her income -there was no subsidised childcare then. When I had my children in the 90s, my mum was over 200 miles away and still working anyway.

It's a choice to have kids and then it's a choice how you look after them
We had they following choices
1 of us gives up work
we pay full-time childcare
1 goes pt minimal childcare
we compress out hours and work opposite shifts.

Is he thick?

Yep. It wipes out half your income. You just have to manage, but it's not forever.

Your friend has some sexist attitudes. By ‘parents’ he means mothers!

His and his wife’s choices had costs too, primarily his wife. He was a ‘facilitated man’ and got to be a parent AND retain / increase his earnings.