AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

apparently it is rude to say oriental to describe someone in america. they say asian, and that is ok.
can anyone through any light on this.
could lead to difficulties for british in/ talking to america.

@Livelovebehappy

I guess it’s due to the word ‘coloured’ being used in an era when being racist was rampant and never challenged. When there was segregation. But as highlighted on this thread some people dislike ‘of colour’ and BAME too. So it’s a bit of a minefield.

It's unfair because if people are going to lose their jobs through choice of words that some find acceptable and some don't then we need official, legally acceptable words that you can't be sacked for using.

See... I'm fascinated by people, where they come from, where their ancestors are from, and I too would like to describe the details of the person i.e the school mum with the soft voice who is half Egyptian with the Italian husband.

However, I do hesitate to ask people questions about their ancestry until they know me well enough to know I'm just a really nosy person!
I wouldn't ever use coloured or poc and I feel a bit awkward describing people as Black or Asian when actually I'm not sure if they are a lot of the time, so I probably do pussy foot around occasionally.
I've wondered if it's OK to say the person with the caramel skin, but I try to think how I would like it if someone described my complexion like a weak yorkshire tea (that's about right) and I'd probably be 🙄

It's good to talk about this!

Basically in the UK don't say either. It's black/mixed race/Asian etc. Though tbh I would have thought most Brits would know this in 2020! I honestly can't remember the last time I heard the word 'coloured' IRL to describe someone, mind you I live in London. America have their own race descriptions.

Honestly, if an otherwise really nice lady in her eighties who clearly wasn’t trying to be offensive in any way used the word coloured would I care? Not really. It’s jarring yes but there are too many real things to watch out for to worry about that. I always tell my sons that it’s the actions and underlying attitudes which are much harder to deal with and harder to challenge. People can use the right words but change is slow.

@PatriciaPerch

but if he is black and Jamaican, isn't he black and Jamican? so why would he be bothered with being refered to as that? isnt this the point?

Because some PP are saying that Black is now considered offensive...

’apparently it is rude to say oriental to describe someone in america’

Well that’s handy as it’s not used in the U.K. either.

@Genevieva
What do you know about anyone's lineage in the UK.

There have been black people & seamen in the UK from around the 1600s, if not before.
Seamen came from all over the world including Africa, ask the Somalians, Sudanese, and North African? Many these would have had children, with white women who continued to live here. Barbados have lots of records for many children from the war years as well!
You need to learn a bit more about Black British history, before making broad statements.
We can identify as we wish. I am Black British, I have African roots, but first I am Black British.
My experience maybe different to others, but I do not think all this heritage separation into Ghanaian -British, Ugandan - British, Nigerian- British etc. is useful.

It's like going back to the 60s & 7th when Africans & West Indians didn't mix.
Those days have gone, or should have.

We are all individuals, with our own names - & separate personalities; we are not statistics, but people just like everyone else.

However, ‘of colour’ in my view is a term that is acceptable to call oneself if you belong to that community, but shouldn’t be used by other people about other people. Kind of like how a gay person can call themselves queer but a straight person shouldn’t use that word as a description.

I agree with this, not many people say 'that white lady' so why would you refer to someone as 'that lady of colour'.
But what about 'black' - would you apply the same idea? I'm never sure whether a black person would like it to be referred to as such so just in case I avoid it, as I say I would find it odd to be described as white rather than some other characteristic - height, what I'm wearing etc.

@squirrelslikenuts and if they have descendants in the UK they are white. In 1951 there were only 20,000 people in the UK who were not white British. The vast majority of people in this country who are not white British no exactly where their relatives travelled from and when. I can assure you I am well read on this subject.

know

And it isn't like going back to the 60s and 70s because we all mix. Mixed-race is that fasted growing group in the UK because, despite all the problems that exist, human beings of all appearances and background meet, fall in love and have babies together.

@orangecinnamon

Why do posters start threads like these, then disappear?

Indeed.

I can think of a few reasons.

Opening poster, have you asked your black friends what difference is? They may explain it best

@Mendocino

Honestly, if an otherwise really nice lady in her eighties who clearly wasn’t trying to be offensive in any way used the word coloured would I care? Not really. It’s jarring yes but there are too many real things to watch out for to worry about that. I always tell my sons that it’s the actions and underlying attitudes which are much harder to deal with and harder to challenge. People can use the right words but change is slow.

I agree with this.

I remember growing up in Ireland ‘coloured’ was used as a more respectful way of describing a black person (nun theory!) when I left uni I lived in an African country for several years and was told (by my new black friends at the time) never to address a black person as coloured as they were not.
We had lots of black friends, coloured friends, Asian friends etc. it’s all about education and I suppose I used to hate being called Paddy when I first came to the UK which happened a lot!
I would hate to offend anyone even through ignorance but I hope nowadays we are more aware. Although at times I despair when I hear some of the kids I teach, in someways I think the younger generations ie teens can be quite revolting to each other.

I do think it’s a complete mine field and while I try to avoid using someone’s skin tone as a descriptor at all there are times when you can’t avoid it. If I’m trying to talk about my reception child’s friends and who he has played with he has said ‘the black one’ to describe one of his friends. I wince but then think his parents are undoubtedly proud to be black and have the culture and heritage they have. If I correct him to say we don’t use skin tone as a descriptor then isn’t that teaching him that being black is bad?

I tie myself in knots over it and end up just hoping I’m getting it right.

I haven’t heard ‘oriental’ outside of Edward Said in about forty years. 😂😂

I think referring to anyone by an acronym is shit isn't it. And bame really doesn't work the same in a country where white skin is in the minority.

I don't understand why Americans refer to Spanish people as non white 🤔

Somebody mentioned hoping to not have to pussy foot around skin colour and Somebody else said it was like not seeing colour, but it would be good if it was as neutral as hair colour. I absolutely don't care if I'm referred to as the brunette if somebody needs to say that through not knowing my name, and I often say things like "the blonde lady" or whatever. It would be a peaceful world if skin were the same.

When I was a little girl in the 1950’s it was considered rude to use the word “ black” as others have said, we were taught to say coloured was polite. We were not aware we were being racist, these were my school friends and neighbours. I would be mortified if anyone at the time thought we were being racist.
Times change and we learn continuously and I would never dream of using that term now.
My husband is from the Far East and I say , if asked, he is “ country” like I am “ English”

@Skysblue

“Coloured” means you live in the 1950s. “Person of color” means you live in America. “BAME” means you’re in the civil service, in Human Resources, or both. God help you. “Black” means you’re black. “Half caste” means you’re at my secondary school in the 1990s. “Brown” means you have good eyesight.

Tongue paralysed with indecision thus making you incapable of saying any of the above means you’re white British.

This

I have been told off twice for referring to my cousin as black. As in
Them: which one is your cousin?
Me: the black man in the blue shirt over there
Them: you can't say that.

I am so white I am pale blue in the winter. Cousin is black and that's how he describes himself. Technically mixed race: white mum, black dad. Looks like his dad. Self-describes as black. Virtue signalling people are bonkers.

I don't want to be impolite. However, if you read David Olusoga's recent book on Black British History , you will see our history is not clear cut.
I don't know whether you know about Ltd Walter Tubbs, the 1st Black British officer in WW I. His brother's descendants do not look black, but inherited the hair.
What about the descendants of the seamen, does their mixed heritage not count. There were black miners in Wales and Nottingham, what about their families.
What about the freed slaves who did stay on in England, do they or their descendants count?
Black people didn't suddenly appear in the 1950s.

And not all people of black heritage look black, for obvious reasons. Even, on the continent, there are a wide range of complexions.

Re oriental
My Far Eastern husband uses the term to describe features and doesn’t seem to have a problem with it

Sorry, above message for @Genevieva

@justanotherneighinparadise

I do think it’s a complete mine field and while I try to avoid using someone’s skin tone as a descriptor at all there are times when you can’t avoid it. If I’m trying to talk about my reception child’s friends and who he has played with he has said ‘the black one’ to describe one of his friends. I wince but then think his parents are undoubtedly proud to be black and have the culture and heritage they have. If I correct him to say we don’t use skin tone as a descriptor then isn’t that teaching him that being black is bad?

I tie myself in knots over it and end up just hoping I’m getting it right.

I certainly wouldn't pull your son up on this. The poor little boy doesn't have any prejudice towards the other child's skin colour just because he's observed it. He's making an excellent point though. He's describing what he's seeing. Pity we can't all do the same and just act normal. We live in a very white majority rural area and my ds has a girl who is black in his class. He plays with her alongside other friends. He once mentioned she had 'brown skin' when describing her to his dad when dad asked about his friends. We didn't think anything of it. It's only a deal of you make it one. Tying yourself in knots only serves to highlight their skin colour Is a 'problem'. I think us adults would learn a lot from small children on the subject. Now if a child ridiculed or mocked a child for having a different skin colour - that's when you start getting the big guns out and educating them on identifying them on physical attributes