To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

Teachers have died from covid. The prevalence of the virus is higher in teachers than the rest of the population.

Well that's bullshit according to the latest studies which show teachers were no more at risk than any other profession

Order should be

Doctors/front line/care workers
Vulnerable
Elderly
Then down the age groups oldest to youngest

CEV co-morbitidies and age are the biggest indicators of risk, and I think it is entirely right to immunise those at risk first.

I'd be putting the CEV a bit higher up the list, though.

@FippertyGibbett

My MIL is 93 and has carers coming in to her home twice a day. I’m not sure why she isn’t as at risk as a person living in a care home.

I’d assume that’s because people in care homes are in proximity to a lot more people. Other residents and higher numbers of staff who are around all day.

There has to be a distinction between hands on bus workers and those who are not providing full services. I discovered yesterday that the neurodisability service at my DD's MH Trust packed up on 23rd March with a view that no office staff woukd go back to work until all social distancing ceased. They are all working from with with an infrastructure that doesn't facilitate IT connections or phone diversions. All on full pay. The guidance off the rest of us is work from home if you can. If you can't you are made redundant or you go in and ensure you render a full contractual service. One can only wonder how much this is replicated. I was told yesterday it's because they weren't set up for a pandemic like this and are learning from it. It is affecting patient care and patient care of the vulnerable. It is a national disgrace.

So actually I think it needs to be tiered in the NHS and made available to those who have put themselves at risk for the people first.

NHS frontline
Care workers
Teachers and lecturers delivering F2F
People in care homes
Shielding categories
Then age related including non F2F NHS and teaching and lecturing staff (ie, the lazy Buggers who hid).

Presumably one will also be able to jump the queue by paying. I'd pay £200 I reckon fkr an early dose and freedom/peace of mind.

The order was explained as those that would put the most strain on hospitals. Whether that is correct or not, who knows?

It does say it could change depending on effectiveness in particular age groups.

Older people usually make less of an immune response to vaccination. The shingles vaccination for example, isn't even offered to the over eighties for this very reason. It's not cost effective. I wonder if this will figure.
With a limited supply I'd be looking at getting the most 'bang for your buck' so to speak.

I guess they have decided by number of deaths.
so teachers can get covid but don't often die of it
If you say something vague like vulnerable 40 year olds, what defines vulnerable - asthma? previous cancer sufferer? learning disabled? etc etc etc etc so could end up with a bunfight and doctors surgeries being overwhelmed by people demanding proof of their vunlerability.

@converseandjeans

Another teacher bashing thread 😫

I don't know of any teachers in real life who would take a vaccine before a vulnerable person had had the chance?!

I think teachers also acknowledge that there are other professions in the front line - care home workers, cares for disabled, prison staff, front line police.

I don't know if I want a vaccine that is unknown anyway.

I don't know any figures but you'll all start moaning if schools have to close due to not enough staff.

I find the continual teacher bashing quite upsetting. Most of us work hard & don't moan!?

Seriously, grow up. The reason there have been so many ‘teacher bashing’ threads on MN is because of ridiculous posts like the fourth one on this thread. Then running off to the staff room thread to snipe and bitch about other posters. It is making the place toxic and I for one am sick of it.

@Caeruleanblue

I guess they have decided by number of deaths. so teachers can get covid but don't often die of it If you say something vague like vulnerable 40 year olds, what defines vulnerable - asthma? previous cancer sufferer? learning disabled? etc etc etc etc so could end up with a bunfight and doctors surgeries being overwhelmed by people demanding proof of their vunlerability.

I imagine for ease of rolling it out it’ll be very similar to the flu vaccine criteria. It’s being done in a most needy to less needy criteria this year. Combined with the shielding and vulnerable lists that will give a good list

They’ll also have an idea from that who is possibly more likely to take the vaccine from the list of people who are normally offered the flu vaccine and decline

@Stripesnomore

I am glad MN wasn’t around when people were trying to get on life boats on the Titanic.

The decision should be left to experts.

Haha Yes it's going to be the balloon debate of the future isn't it!

Logic looks like

1. major spread vectors (Healthcare staff)
2. Quick win very vulnerable environment (Care homes - registered, on site staff can deliver to all residents)
3. Age bands - cynically this is quicker to administer than CEV which depends on lists being right... Easier to sort by age in most records systems...

So actually I think it needs to be tiered in the NHS and made available to those who have put themselves at risk for the people first.

Giving by some sort of worthiness scale is not going to happen. And not should it.

It should be done on need and what offers the greatest protection.

Not on some sort of job hierarchy, especially one that ignores rafts of jobs where people have been exposed “.

nearlyattheend
Seriously, grow up. The reason there have been so many ‘teacher bashing’ threads on MN is because of ridiculous posts like the fourth one on this thread. Then running off to the staff room thread to snipe and bitch about other posters. It is making the place toxic and I for one am sick of it.

You post that and tell another poster to grow up.

The irony is astounding.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@Wigeon Interesting that they've only just started asking for occupation when you book a test so who knows where that data came from.

They are burying infection rates in children, they're changing categories so you cannot compare like with like.

I don't think teachers should be anywhere near the top of the list. They should be above some jobs though.[/quote]
@Hercwasonaroll - the ONS information isn’t based on the main Test and Trace programme of testing people who have symptoms, but on a dedicated study where they sample a large number of people and test them. They presumably ask them lots of demographic questions, like a person’s occupation. That’s how they can look at the risk to teachers specifically.

The full methodology for the ONS study is here

Do it quickly and crudely and get it done... Pissing around with "worthiness" is counter productive.

you say something vague like vulnerable 40 year olds, what defines vulnerable

They'll use the broad categories which the government has been publishing since March. Which is essentially the same as the non-age entitlement to the flu jab , plus BMI >40

‘Why are care home residents so high on the list. ’

Yeah. Selfish bastards. It’s not like many of them have already died. If we wait a while longer hopefully they’ll all be dead before the vaccine is ready. That’ll leave more for more vulnerable, deserving cases.

I wondered how long it would take for the bickering over priority would start.

I think childminders should be listed along with teachers of nursery/nursery practitioners - they are having children in their homes as childminders and there have been outbreaks in those settings.

Teachers should be the same as anyone else and get the vaccine based on medical need. Healthcare staff get it early on, not because they are more vulnerable than teachers (tho they are) but because if Healthcare staff are off it fucks everything up AND they are more likely to pass it on to more vulnerable people.

Every teacher I know (and I know a few) aren't hysterical about this virus, only on mumsnet. It surprises me that teachers constantly complain how busy they are, how much work they have to do, how many 14 hour shifts they put in over the holidays, yet have enough energy to be constantly posting on mn?

I'm a student with 2 kids and a few hobbies and even I don't get the time to obsessively follow threads.

My post had an error re teachers and lecturers. It should be given as a priority to all F2F staff.

I take my hat off to the teachers who just voted by a sizeable majority to carry on teaching. It has been a significant boost to their integrity and professionalism and there should have been far greater press coverage.

Given the complexity and personal wants it’s good a separate body look at this and determine list. I think they’ll decide correctly given info.

@laudemio

Cev people may react differently to the vax compared to majority of population. It makes sense to vaccinaye older people first in case of any very rare side effects not found in trials. Disclaimer this is my own logic and not based on any actual knowledge.

I'm sorry, what? Are you sincerely saying that it's better for older people to suffer rare side effects than younger??

@Wigeon

BBC is linking to the interim priority list here:

1 older adults’ resident in a care home and care home workers

2 all those 80 years of age and over and health and social care workers1

3 all those 75 years of age and over

4 all those 70 years of age and over

5 all those 65 years of age and over
high-risk adults under 65 years of age

6 moderate-risk adults under 65 years of age
7 all those 60 years of age and over
8 all those 55 years of age and over
9 all those 50 years of age and over
10 rest of the population (priority to be determined)

link here and Who will have the Pfizer vaccine first and when can I get it? [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-54880084 here]]

I think they've got it right here.

I'm bored of arguing this but also astonished at the number of people who believe teachers aren't at risk.
ONS data released this week that looks at schools whilst they are actually open not half online like earlier data, shows that teachers are just as likely to get covid as 'other essential workers'. However, if you read the small print, when they say 'other essential workers' they specifically mean health and social care workers.

If we could just accept that teachers are at the same risk of catching it as these groups AS THE DATA SHOWS and put some safety measures in (and get vulnerable staff and pupils out) we might be able to keep schools both open and functioning.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/6november2020#analysis-of-the-number-of-school-workers-key-workers-and-other-professions-in-england-who-had-covid-19