To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

@noblegiraffe

I had the impression they were told they definitely were not allowed to wear PPE

Government has said its to be avoided in classrooms. Not just ‘up to the head’ but to be avoided.

That's interesting as at DD's school they are very much encouraged by the head to wear masks during lessons. Whether or not they do depends a lot on the teacher . Some aren't bothered .

I think it's a non negotiable that front-line staff be prioritised including all teachers/lecturers so they can teach F2F safely. Obviously front-line NHS too. Immediately after care homes and care home workers.

After that work down from the most vulnerable.

I am 60 and can continue to watch hands face space and stay away from crowds and certainly think those on the front line: teachers, HCPs, admin staff in those area who are at work and need to be, police, fire service, etc - all should be prioritised

think it's a non negotiable that front-line staff be prioritised including all teachers/lecturers so they can teach F2F safely

It’s obviously not non negotiable - or at least it is, but not in the way you specify. It’s pretty clear that priority will be based on age, not least because that automatically frees younger people without co-morbidities who are likely to experience a mild illness if they’re infected.

I think it's a non negotiable that front-line staff be prioritised including all teachers/lecturers so they can teach F2F safely. Obviously front-line NHS too. Immediately after care homes and care home workers.

It obviously isn't non negotiable because they aren't being prioritised and that is quite right. Those who are most vulnerable are being prioritised. The only reason NHS staff and care home staff are being vaccinated first is because they treat the vulnerable. Teachers don't so no need for them to be a priority unless they themselves are vulnerable.

Teachers don't so no need for them to be a priority unless they themselves are vulnerable.

What about all the vulnerable children they teach?
Children with vulnerable family members?

Even children with co morbidities aren’t succumbing to Covid and vulnerable family members will be towards the front of the queue. There’s no need to prioritise teachers.

Personally I would give it to:

1. care home residents and staff, home carers
2. NHS staff, emergency services, prison workers
3. teachers, school staff, nursery staff, essential retail workers
4. over 80s and ECV
5. over 70s and CV
6. over 60s, then 50s...

@LadyCatStark

Personally I would give it to:

1. care home residents and staff, home carers
2. NHS staff, emergency services, prison workers
3. teachers, school staff, nursery staff, essential retail workers
4. over 80s and ECV
5. over 70s and CV
6. over 60s, then 50s...

Based on what rationale?

Social workers

28 pages in and people still aren't getting the point of this initial wave of vaccinations.

It's not about saving specific lives etc. It's about preventing the NHS from being overwhelmed so that everyone who needs a bed can get one.

From a statistical point of view, the elderly are the most likely to be hospitalised, over those younger people with heath conditions. So they are vaccinated first to prevent them overwhelming the system.

Care homes need to be able to take residents from hospitals. Their residents are vaccinated because if care homes have outbreaks they cannot take more residents from hospitals, and then hospitals get overwhelmed with bed blocking on a mass scale.

Health staff are vaccinated because if they can't treat anyone, the system gets (drumroll)... overwhelmed and can't treat anyone.

These groups have been selected because it's the most efficient way to ensure that if you happen to be a clinically vulnerable person, or a teacher, or a child, then there will be a bed available for you because the system won't have been overwhelmed by those groups who are statistically more likely to have needed beds.

Once the initial programme is set up, I expect we will see new programmes with more people able to access one, in the same way we have with the flu vaccines. But in the meantime, steps have to be taken to ensure our health system continues to function, and this is the best way.

@WorksTheDinerAllDay thank fuck for some sense.

Please, everyone, listen to this post.

What WorksTheDinerAllDay said.

Once the acute pressure on the NHS has been relieved, then I think we should be looking at vaccinating those who work in high density environments (food production, schools, prisons) to minimise spread in the community. But that would be very much a secondary objective.

@OverTheRainbow88

Teachers don't so no need for them to be a priority unless they themselves are vulnerable.

What about all the vulnerable children they teach?
Children with vulnerable family members?

Not many children are vulnerable but if they are then they should be prioritised for vaccination, not their teachers.

Thank you worksthedinerallday. A sensible post at last.

It's a tough one, because vulnerability isn't just a function of how likely you are to catch it, or how ill you'll get, per window of exposure, it's also a function of how much exposure you get.

It does seem likely [to me at least] that say a prime or middle aged supermarket worker or bus driver or teacher or whatever will come into contact with such a vastly greater number of other people than the average octogenarian who lives at home that their risk is greater.

But there may well be a tradeoff between a rule that's easy to understand/administratively simple and one that's perhaps strictly optimal in an ideal world. Using age groups as the main criteria may well be advantageous from that perspective as well as being reasonably good from a theoretical perspective.

@noblegiraffe

I had the impression they were told they definitely were not allowed to wear PPE

Government has said its to be avoided in classrooms. Not just ‘up to the head’ but to be avoided.

Same in my school. We were told NOT to wear masks. Not sure why. We have been told many times that school is safe.

There were a couple of cases over half term and since then the advice has changed. It's now compulsory to wear a mask.

Cases have gone sky high almost overnight. It's spreading fast. Lots of students off school.

So if teachers do get a vaccine I think it will be more so that they can continue to work and keep schools open. Don't forget if a teacher comes in and spends an hour with 5 x groups of 30 then they could potentially infect a huge number of students who could take the virus home. It's nothing to do with teachers thinking they're special - it's just a fact that they are in close contact with large numbers. It's not quite the same as a shop as a classroom is a small space and there is a group in there usually for an hour. So a perfect breeding ground for a virus.

Not many children are vulnerable but if they are then they should be prioritised for vaccination, not their teachers.
It is unlikely that the Pfizer vaccine will be suitable for vulnerable children, although hopefully the Oxford one will be. (Crossing everything!)

So if teachers do get a vaccine I think it will be more so that they can continue to work and keep schools open. Don't forget if a teacher comes in and spends an hour with 5 x groups of 30 then they could potentially infect a huge number of students who could take the virus home. It's nothing to do with teachers thinking they're special - it's just a fact that they are in close contact with large numbers. It's not quite the same as a shop as a classroom is a small space and there is a group in there usually for an hour. So a perfect breeding ground for a virus.

If older and vulnerable people are vaccinated they are not going to be very concerned with whether children are infected as that will have little impact on hospitalisations. It's not clear yet whether children will ever be vaccinated.

@noblegiraffe

Face coverings mandatory at our school, optional for teachers (some were struggling to make themselves heard or just not keen).
The wording of the recommendations provides a caveat that schools can include them in their risk assessment and some have.

Bear in mind also that many of the 2.2m ECV persons, are in the elderly groups, so statistically, you are double counting many of the priority vaccine group. So, over 75's contain 30% of ECV for example, 60-75 another 33%, 50-60 have 15%, so in vaccinating those older groups you are also sweeping up 75% of all ECV. You are effectively getting double benefit for your buck.

I’m afraid @WorksTheDinerAllDay , that your good point is wasted on the desert air!

I have repeatedly on this thread and elsewhere said what you say, and no one ever listens (save a few exceptions).

Why oh why don’t people understand that “protecting the elderly” is not because we venerate the old, but because if they start going to hospital in large numbers it will bring down the health service.

Also ECV or whatever (and I am one) ARE NOT SPECIAL. The sheer arrogance of some posters to think they are anything other than a potential bloody nuisance if they caught covid.

I can’t help thinking the govt machine did a pretty poor job when so many people have not understood the message. Or perhaps a lot of people are just supreme egotists.

Where does 75% of ECV are over 50 come from??

BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronavirusandshieldingofclinicallyextremelyvulnerablepeopleinengland/24juneto30june2020

Subsection three has an excellent graph - sorry can't link the graph.

Interesting, thank you!

Does this work.....