To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

Unless you're secretly a virologist, YABVU. Why do you think you know better?

@BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache

I’m not arguing that I should have it (as I said upthread, I’m not even sure if I can), but hospitalisation is surely just as likely in younger ECV compared to a healthy 60 year old? If they’re just comparing age (as everything I have seen does), they aren’t comparing like for like.

I’ve been in hospital more times in the last few years than my mother and father combined

Age is the biggest risk. Over 65s are at greater risk.

Between 40 and 65. That's when your argument might apply - if (as well as health) socioeconomic risk factors are included.

So a 45 year old with poor health - whether officially 'ECV' or not - living in a deprived urban area will be at greater risk (of catching Covid, and of dying from it) than a fit and healthy 55 year old living in an affluent area.

I broadly agree with the reported suggested order of priority. It should go to those most at risk of serious illness or death.

I have two big concerns.

1. They are incorrectly cutting off the initial threshold at 50, when it should be 45.

1. Will it be the most extremely vulnerable to serious illness or death, or just the government's shielding list (which doesn't include most of the extremely clinically vulnerable)?.

1 in 4 of all the deaths (25%) have been people with diabetes. They need to be prioritised.

The data shows there are few deaths under 40.

So the priority, after care home residents and staff, then over 80s and healthcare staff, then over 65s, should be:

1. Over 40s with high risk conditions including socioeconomic risks.
2. All other over 45s.

Then everybody else when we have more supplies.

@bemusedmoose

I'm sure there is a reason to the order (though our government is shockingly inept and probably picked it out of a hat like they did with the rules.)

I would have gone

1. most vulnerable
2. front line and key workers 3)care homes 4)over 50s Everyone else

The risk really starts to increase at 45. Not 50.

Clinically vulnerable should be 1st on the list.
Then Health Care workers & Teachers.
Then Elderly & very young.

I am more than happy that my 90 yr old Mum who lives on her own, spends 2 hours in her garden everyday and many hours on her other hobbies, sees my sister just once a week to receive the shopping from my sister at the back door, my mum who has never has been out ( except for her flu jab) since March 9th and who is very lonely , I am more than happy that she is second on the list and so she should be .
Although my husband is only 16 months older than me , he is 3 positions higher (than me) being just 65!. Win some , lose some!

Seriously? Once and if the vaccine gets rolled out the most vulnerable should get it first. And yes, that IS the elderly. End of. Once the vaccine is in production it won't be long before we can all get it. The production is not the issue... it's the testing and getting it right that takes time. Relax.

@SnozPoz, well said

@lyralalala

The list makes perfect sense

people most likely to die & those most likely to infect those most likely to die

Next most likely to die & next most likely to infect those

So on and so forth.

There's always going to be examples of why one particular 75-year-old should get it before one particular 80-year-old, but mass vaccination programmes can't be tailored to individual level. They've got to work on bands of vulnerability.

Took four pages for someone to finally state the blindingly obvious. Thank you Lyralala.

And yes, that IS the elderly. End of.

So why we're the CEV asked to shield, but not the elderly?

The government endorsed a group,as being at the very highest risk, and getting publicly funded support to isolate totally - none of which was provided for or asked of the elderly.

Even now, in this lockdown lite with shielding lite, it is the CEV who have the strictest advice.

So the government is telling them with one hand that they really are the most vulnerable. But not giving them vaccine priority at that level

Stuff that, i wouldnt WANT a vaccine that hasn't been rigorously tested first. I am not an anti-vaxer, but we have no understanding of the longer term ramifications of this one, and i think anyone who is in a high risk group and vulnerable, has a very big choice ahead of them, as to which is the riskier course of action.

Its all risk factor based - a teacher with underlying health conditions will get it before a fit 40 year old. Of course this is the UK and we're bound to make mince of it

I don’t think this has been thought through properly. We live in a multi-generational household and my DH will get the vaccine before me and our DD is in the final category. Given that many deaths were in similar households to our’s , I think they need to revise the priority. However, I suspect that everyone in the country could come up with their own list of priorities.

@FelicisNox

Clinically vulnerable should be 1st on the list. Then Health Care workers & Teachers. Then Elderly & very young.

If clinically vulnerable are first on the list, then that is the elderly. Age is the biggest clinically vulnerable risk factor.

Teachers (and any other essential frontline worker, i.e. delivery drivers, posties, security guards, train, bus, and cab drivers, police, shop and pharmacy staff, etc) are still at very low risk if under 40.

After care homes, care and health staff, and over 65s, we should do over 40s with clinically or socioeconomic risk factors, then all other over 45s.

I won’t be getting the vaccine. It actually concerns me on how quick they have managed to deem this safe. Most vaccines take several years before being deemed safe to be given.
No one knows long term effects as of yet!
Scientists are still researching the covid-19 virus (Coronavirus itself has been around for years but not this strain) and are discovering new things about how it is affecting people both in the short and long term. People have developed different symptoms and yet miraculously a vaccine has been discovered on a virus that only became known of earlier this year?? No one knows the long term effects either. No thanks!

@Tubs11

Its all risk factor based - a teacher with underlying health conditions will get it before a fit 40 year old. Of course this is the UK and we're bound to make mince of it

This is where it gets tricky. Risk increases in someone's 40s. All the reports note how there have been very few deaths under 40.

Who gets the vaccine first. An otherwise fit and healthy affluent 30 year old with an underlying condition who lives in a small town or village, or a not super fit or healthy but with no officially diagnosed conditions 45 year old living a life of poverty in a deprived urban area. The latter is at greater risk from Covid.

If clinically vulnerable are first on the list, then that is the elderly. Age is the biggest clinically vulnerable risk factor

Only if you ignore the CEV, which hasn't happened to date in government advice and planning.

@meditrina

And yes, that IS the elderly. End of.

So why we're the CEV asked to shield, but not the elderly?

The government endorsed a group,as being at the very highest risk, and getting publicly funded support to isolate totally - none of which was provided for or asked of the elderly.

Even now, in this lockdown lite with shielding lite, it is the CEV who have the strictest advice.

So the government is telling them with one hand that they really are the most vulnerable. But not giving them vaccine priority at that level

You could ask the same question as to why people with diabetes, especially those over 40, weren't given the protection of shielding.

1 in 4 of the deaths have been in diabetics.

Clearly the shielding list went badly wrong.
It excluded most of the extremely clinically vulnerable - including the elderly, people with hypertension, and people with diabetes!

It shouldn’t be CV before healthy 70 year olds. I’m CV and in my 30s and there’s no way I’m more at risk than a 70 year old. I’m happy to wait my turn and get back to normal in the meantime if I’m at the bottom of the list.

[quote Wigeon]@Hercwasonaroll - that’s just not true. See this government study from the summer of Covid in schools, and this report on the low numbers of Covid outbreaks in schools.

And this from the WHO which certainly doesn’t suggest that teachers are at particularly high risk.[/quote]
These studies were published in summer and do not reflect current situation. Before September teachers were mostly working from home and the ones who were teaching face to face were teaching small classes 5-10 in class where children were able to be 2m apart and the teacher was at least 2m away from children and no other adults. Compare that to usual classroom today with 30 teenager sitting next to each other, busy corridors and teachers without PPE. I think teachers should be above 50,60yr olds especially is majority is still WFH and can make a choice to have social contact or not, e.g. go shopping, meet friends. Teachers do not have that choice, secondary teachers mix with 150 households daily and majority I know behaved outside schools hours as if in the lockdown even before it was introduced to minimise the risk they expose themselves and their families too. You want schools open - give teachers the priority

‘1 in 4 of the deaths have been in diabetics’

What’s the source for this? And of the one in four, how many were also in other high risk categories? How many had diabetes but were not in any other high risk group?

I believe that people of any age officially designated as clinically extremely vulnerable by the NHS should get it before healthy elderly people. NHS workers makes sense, if there aren't people to care for the sick that's not helpful. Not sure if they could justify teachers being ahead of other keyworkers who have to come into contact with the public.

We might be old but we still have lots to give. I am 74 h, have come out of retirement to help save our business which employs 6 full time employees and lots of sub'conract labour depending on the needs at the time. You do not owe us anything except we are doing out best and have not so many years left and you are doing your best and have more years left, hopefully. We have worked all our lives and now just want to be nannas and grandpas to our grandkids. So is it too much to ask that, as we are at a high risk, we should be given any vaccine before you lucky younger and healthy parents. I would swap swap my front line vaccine for your younger years any time. xxxù

@nether

If clinically vulnerable are first on the list, then that is the elderly. Age is the biggest clinically vulnerable risk factor

Only if you ignore the CEV, which hasn't happened to date in government advice and planning.

Yes I guess you're right. The government has so far failed to protect the majority of the most extremely clinically vulnerable - hence the huge numbers of deaths in care homes, and the fact that 25% of all deaths have been in people with diabetes.

Let's hope that, regardless of all the other cockups, with the vaccine they do go by who is the most extremely vulnerable to Covid.

So - age, and then clinical and socioeconomic risks.

Do people think that with a vaccine roll out on this scale that there’s time to piss around deciding what over 70s are fitter than under 50s and give it on that basis?

Maybe eventually but they need to get it out TO THE GROUPS more likely to overwhelm the NHS so the elderly first.

@studychick81 “where’s the data for that”... the data for that is in the panel data that they use to make the decisions, just imagine that they have more information then you. YABU to think a panel of epidemiologists, virologists, public health experts and clinicians (JVCI) know less than you. www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-25-september-2020