To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

@bonbonours

I believe that people of any age officially designated as clinically extremely vulnerable by the NHS should get it before healthy elderly people. NHS workers makes sense, if there aren't people to care for the sick that's not helpful. Not sure if they could justify teachers being ahead of other keyworkers who have to come into contact with the public.

Age is the biggest risk. There have been very very few deaths in people under 40 - even those with serious underlying conditions.

There is a difference between clinically extremely vulnerable which is people of various ages who have had or have chemotherapy, AIDS and other things which affect their immune systems, and vulnerable, which includes all over 70s. The CEV had much stricter guidelines during the first lockdown than the regular elderly people becase they were at an even higher risk. But according to the lists being bandied about they are ignoring this CEV category. This means my healthy 70 year old dad would get it before my CEV 69 year old mother. That is definitely not right.

So is it too much to ask that, as we are at a high risk, we should be given any vaccine before you lucky younger and healthy parents

No it's not too much to ask. And fortunately the people here who want to barge to the front of the queue and push more vulnerable people out of the way, won't actually get an option to do so.

Should be key workers first , sounds daft but with out doctors , nurses , engineers , teachers , hospitals staff , care home staff a lot of services would halt

To me most over 65 can stay at home and have minimal contact

@MadameBlobby

Do people think that with a vaccine roll out on this scale that there’s time to piss around deciding what over 70s are fitter than under 50s and give it on that basis?

Maybe eventually but they need to get it out TO THE GROUPS more likely to overwhelm the NHS so the elderly first.

Not with over 65s, but when it comes to the next level down - over 45s, they could roll it out by area. So start with more deprived areas first.

Talking to my parents who are 85 plus they think its a total waste vaccinating them when someone younger could have it. teachers should certainly be on the list, and nursery staff

“Should be key workers first” - I suggest you read “as if expendable” by amnesty international to see why persons in care homes are first, it’s shocking. www.amnesty.org/en/documents/EUR45/3152/2020/en/

@bonbonours

There is a difference between clinically extremely vulnerable which is people of various ages who have had or have chemotherapy, AIDS and other things which affect their immune systems, and vulnerable, which includes all over 70s. The CEV had much stricter guidelines during the first lockdown than the regular elderly people becase they were at an even higher risk. But according to the lists being bandied about they are ignoring this CEV category. This means my healthy 70 year old dad would get it before my CEV 69 year old mother. That is definitely not right.

This is a good point. Means my healthy 70 year old mother would get it before my 37 year old sister who has Down’s syndrome (and therefore is CEV)

The over 80’s are the most vulnerable!

Totally agree with PPs who have pointed this out.

Of course, some 80 year olds are getting nothing more than bad cold symptoms with COVID-19, while otherwise healthy 30 year have died, but the decision isn’t being made on individual circumstances.

It’s about ensuring the NHS isn’t overwhelmed. Vaccinating the over 80’s is the most effective way of cutting the overall number of hospital admissions.

That is good for younger people. It means there will be room for them if they do go to hospital. ( and they’ll have a better chance of survival).

And for what it’s worth, I know someone who’d been shielding earlier in the year who contracted Covid-19. Turns out he only got mild symptoms.

@Retiremental

‘1 in 4 of the deaths have been in diabetics’

What’s the source for this? And of the one in four, how many were also in other high risk categories? How many had diabetes but were not in any other high risk group?

It's been widely reported. Data worldwide.

Here's this for now. I'll be back with more links if you like.

Diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and hypertension are the most common chronic comorbidities in people with severe COVID-19

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213858720302710

I'm half way up the list but dont mind waiting, because I'm selfish cow and want to make sure its safe

@MadameBlobby - exactly this! Yes let’s get all the GPs and peripheral health services to submit a shit ton of health information about the population and work through that list 🤦🏼‍♀️ People just look at the list, see they aren’t there and moan. Teachers are important we all KNOW that but the evidence of pupil to teacher transmission is relatively low. Schools are functioning to a degree, hospitals are not and that or why teachers are not a key worker with front line contact.

It will be done the way flu is the next lot will be for the vulnerable and at risk

You are wrong about CEV - the risk of death from for those with haematological cancers who require hospital admission is 36%

It’s one of the highest death rates there is.

Care home residents are also not mobile, if the vaccine does cause someone to be contagious then it (virus) can be isolated easily. erm what now? Of course some/many care home residents are mobile! I run a care home with 20 residents and 4 are not mobile. The rest are and many have dementia therefore do not understand or retain the information to stay in their rooms in the event of an outbreak.

Touch wood we are covid free but we asked for advice on what to do about residents who wouldn't stay in their rooms if we have an outbreak...we were told to lock them in their bedrooms! As if any carer would subject someone to that! The next piece of advice was "hospitals often sedate mobile dementia patients so can't you just do that?"

Those saying that the data doesn't yet exist for deaths/hospitalisation for age vs ECV (not just "0.01% of 40 year olds die" (made up number there) but whether those people were existing category ECV/diabetic/hypertensive, what % of ECV/hypertensive/diabetic/healthy die or are hospitalised in that age group vs what % of each category of other age groups etc) - the vaccine hasn't even been licensed yet, there is time to find the data!!

I was wrong. It's not 25% of all the deaths. It's more than that.

1 in 3 of all the deaths. Mostly over 40s.
All over 40s with diabetes should be on the shielding list. It's quite shocking that they're not.

From NHS England.
People living with diabetes face a significantly higher risk of dying with COVID-19 with a third of deaths in England associated with the condition, according to new NHS research.

The study also shows that in people with both type 1 and type 2 diabetes, even when all other known factors are taken into account, higher blood glucose levels and obesity are linked to higher risk.

the research suggests that the threat for those under 40 with type 1 or type 2 diabetes is very low, with no recorded deaths in those under 20

www.england.nhs.uk/2020/05/nhs-expands-offer-of-help-to-people-with-diabetes-during-coronavirus-outbreak/

Comorbidities - and multiple comorbidities - increase with age.

Even ignoring the ECV people, if hypertension risk increases with age and correlates with covid morbidity, then that leaves you a pool of (example numbers to save searching) 25% of 60 year olds, 50% of 70 year olds, and 75% of 80 year olds who are vulnerable. Those 25% of 60 year olds are no less vulnerable than the 75% of 80 year olds - there are just more of them.

The up take will be low for NHS Workers and teachers.

@Beachhappy

The up take will be low for NHS Workers and teachers.

Why? Frontline NHS workers would be mad not to have it.

@iVampire

You are wrong about CEV - the risk of death from for those with haematological cancers who require hospital admission is 36%

It’s one of the highest death rates there is.

who require hospital admission Perhaps that's it? If they need hospital they're at higher risk - but are they less likely than say diabetics, hypertensives, or heart patients, to get ill enough with Covid to need hospitalisation in the first place? There's increasing evidence to suggest that immunosuppression can protect against serious illness from Covid.

The highest death rates from Covid are cardiovascular, hypertension, diabetes, kidney conditions, severe pulmonary issues, and obesity.

Also, when figuring out the maths, they need to bear in mind the amount of ECV people who barricaded themselves in their homes between March and now - ignoring medical problems in some cases - as they were so scared of hospital being a death sentence.

@BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache

Also, when figuring out the maths, they need to bear in mind the amount of ECV people who barricaded themselves in their homes between March and now - ignoring medical problems in some cases - as they were so scared of hospital being a death sentence.

The data wrt death rates and the conditions most associated with mortality comes from around the world.

Be nice to do that because ECV are apparently at highest risk, and it be counterproductive as the government then uses it as evidence that "see, you're not that high risk after all - only a few of you died" 🙄

Prime minister's speech said NHS & front line first.