To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

I imagine they have chosen that order since most deaths are in the very elderly age so makes sense to protect them first.

The of course doctors, nurses and care staff.

Following that ECV

No idea how many in those groups alone so not sure how many vaccine doses left.

Well fuck me, this thread is edifying.

This makes no allowance for the clinically vulnerable who were not put on the shielding list ( ECV) As a previous poster said, people who are called for the flu jab every year are called for a reason. They are susceptible to respiratory illness for underlying health conditions( asthma, heart conditions). They should be included in priority groups. I am glad to see it considered in the original government list and no teachers should not be given priority over this group. In fact, many teachers fall within this group and they have been put in a very difficult situation as they fall outside of the ECV group but their risk is still elevated.

why bother giving to some care home residents?? those with terminal illness and far gone dementia?? My grandmother died at 97 years of age after lying in a bed for 3 years. She has no idea where she was or who anyone was and was unable to get up from her bed. Where is the quality of life?

I think they need to go from two directions equally here. Both the ones most likely to die from CV but at the same time, the super spreaders. People who are most likely to be exposed and pass it on.

@Shimy

If they had the 100m doses needed to vaccinate the whole population it wouldn't actually take that long according to my friend - the mass population would be through central vaccination centres which is quick, harder is the vulnerable who need transport to centres/home visits so gps would be needed to coordinate that. Care homes are first in line and hcp will go into the homes. We are talking months rather than days but it will depend on how flexible we the public are, partners like transport companies etc

Both the ones most likely to die from CV but at the same time, the super spreaders. People who are most likely to be exposed and pass it on.

I do agree with this

Risk, and therefore healthcare provision, is massively skewed by age. I'm a CEV supposedly, but the risk to me is tiny and I'd much rather see the elderly get vaccinated first.

@whatistheworld

why bother giving to some care home residents?? those with terminal illness and far gone dementia?? My grandmother died at 97 years of age after lying in a bed for 3 years. She has no idea where she was or who anyone was and was unable to get up from her bed. Where is the quality of life?

So you would be content for the virus to rip through care home residents as happened at the start of the pandemic? And for their deaths to be much more traumatic than they might otherwise be? Not to mention the issues around the impact on the NHS.

LockdownInDressingGownAndFrown it's vile, isn't it?

why bother giving to some care home residents?? those with terminal illness and far gone dementia?? My grandmother died at 97 years of age after lying in a bed for 3 years. She has no idea where she was or who anyone was and was unable to get up from her bed. Where is the quality of life

If the vaccine works then to prevent further suffering to older people right? If we are to believe the scenes shown to us in hospital of older people dying on ventilators in terrible distress, then why on earth wouldn't we offer it to them first in order to prevent that? It's not just about prolonging life is it.

[quote movingonup20]@Shimy

If they had the 100m doses needed to vaccinate the whole population it wouldn't actually take that long according to my friend - the mass population would be through central vaccination centres which is quick, harder is the vulnerable who need transport to centres/home visits so gps would be needed to coordinate that. Care homes are first in line and hcp will go into the homes. We are talking months rather than days but it will depend on how flexible we the public are, partners like transport companies etc [/quote]
Our LA has told us our care home will be visited by a mobile unit to carry out vaccinations.

We’ve also been informed that it could be delivered by army medics.

The reason for vaccinating care home residents first is because they are the most likely to end up in hospital occupying beds for a long time. Any illness spreads quickly in communal living facilities so it makes sense to try to quell the virus here first.

I can’t believe people think teachers should be priority over the elderly even though that is a far bigger risk factor in severity of illness. It’s common sense that the most clinically vulnerable set it first. That will include teachers with underlying health issues too but not a 30 year old fit teacher who would only suffer slightly if they caught it.

@whatistheworld

why bother giving to some care home residents?? those with terminal illness and far gone dementia?? My grandmother died at 97 years of age after lying in a bed for 3 years. She has no idea where she was or who anyone was and was unable to get up from her bed. Where is the quality of life?

Both my grans ended up like this, both had clear care plans that meant they were only to be given pain relief, not active treatment. But I think a vaccine would still be necessary because of the carers, doctors, family members etc who would come into contact with them so close to end of life.

Also some carers work in more than one carehome. Perhaps the 90-something-year-old with dementia in one home passes covid on to a carer who inadvertently goes into another home and passes it on to a much-loved 80-something who is completely compus mentis but in need of nursing care.

Care homes already either have HCPs of their own or have them go in very regularly. There is no reason why they cannot provide the vaccine as soon as the local health board receive it.

I think it should be prioritised by who is most likely to die or be hospitalised due to Covid and who is most likely to infect those types of people. Ie why health care workers and care home staff get it first. That's why all CV and shielding people after 80+ should get it next.

Whether teachers are more likely to get it doesn't matter. They are not more likely to die or infect someone more likely to die. The same with shop staff, delivery drivers etc. Yes these people might be more likely to get it but it's most likely to be mild and require no hospitalisation. But if teachers need to be off work or are going to give it to children who then get sent home and education and those working from home are disrupted then they should get it before a shop worker or office worker where it is less important if they aren't in work.

Whereas CV people are more likely to die or be hospitalised. That makes the most sense and that's why teachers and nursery staff etc are down the list.

@oneglassandpuzzled

Also some carers work in more than one carehome. Perhaps the 90-something-year-old with dementia in one home passes covid on to a carer who inadvertently goes into another home and passes it on to a much-loved 80-something who is completely compus mentis but in need of nursing care.

That is a reason for staff to be vaccinated early on rather than residents.

@Aesopfable

Care homes already either have HCPs of their own or have them go in very regularly. There is no reason why they cannot provide the vaccine as soon as the local health board receive it.

Nursing homes may have a couple of staff trained in inoculation but care homes don’t need to have any nurses on their staff and will not have anyone trained in giving vaccines.

HCPs do visit homes (they do not have designated HCPs though) but many residents are also expected to attend clinics and appointments in person.

As I’ve previously said, we’ve been told that a mobile unit will deliver the vaccine to our home.

YABU

That is a reason for staff to be vaccinated early on rather than residents.

Older care home residents and care staff ARE being vaccinated at the same time.

@pinkearedcow I don’t think @whatistheworld was getting at care home residents aren’t ‘worth’ it and we may as well let them die anyway. But a large amount of end of life care home residents having treatment limitation plans agreed with (and often initiated by the patient) their GP. This can include not going to hospital for treatment if they have a chest infection/fall etc and often includes declining the flu jab. Those people should indeed have the option of the covid vaccine but a significant amount (eg someone with severe dementia who is bed bound and v frail and elderly) may have it declined in their behalf as the distress of vaccine outweighs the fact that everyone needs to die of something. Dying of covid 3 weeks earlier is no more traumatic than 3 more weeks of distress and discomfort with dementia.

There’s no evidence teachers are becoming more ill or dying more often with covid so I think it’s unlikely they will be given it based on their job. I do wonder whether although more likely to be exposed to the virus teachers are also more likely to be exposed to low viral loads (as school children who have it are likely to be asymptomatic when coming into contact with teachers) so although they are more likely to get it they will likely have a milder case and recover well. I have a lot of family and friends who teach a fair few have had it and all have generally been fine bar cold symptoms of lack of smell/taste (all relatively young). High risk teachers due to age/health issues will likely be vaccinated and earlier for those reasons rather than for being a teacher.

Study chick, it is important for essential retail staff to attend work because people need food more than they need education. That is why supermarket staff have worked throughout the pandemic.

All of that is besides the point. The interim list is the most sensible (unsurprising as it was created by experts). Priority goes to the elderly, health care workers and carers, and those with underlying health conditions.

I could not believe that teachers were not on the list. That decision is appalling.

@Aesopfable

Care homes already either have HCPs of their own or have them go in very regularly. There is no reason why they cannot provide the vaccine as soon as the local health board receive it.

The issue is the Pfizer vaccination needs to be kept insanely cold. So it’s not like flu jabs where a district nurse or GP can bung a load in their bag and go round the care home in one fell swoop vaccinating everyone who wants one. A GP friend said it’s likely they will set up ‘hubs’ for people to come to (clearly not possibly for care home patients but they will have to find some portable freezer type things I expect!).