To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

I wonder to what extent the roll out order is related to testing the side effecrs vaccine on those who have a limited life left anyway. I read the vaccine will not be given to the non vulnerable under 50s due to the risk benefit ratio. This of course may change as we know more about any side effects after it is piloted in the elderly.

@loubieloo4

The order makes no sense, but I say that as dh (40) is stage 4 terminal cancer.

1. Healthcare workers (including care homes)
2. CEV
3. over 80's
4. care homes
5. key workers (teachers etc) Then probably in age order

I agree with this order not the HMGov one.

There is an age component so it's right to take that into account but as a CEV under 50 year old who is in and out of Hospital by ambulance with recurrent respiratory failure and working with the most vulnerable people with chronic conditions (CF PD MS MND etc) in my work, I am shocked that the government would prioritise 'me as a health and social care worker' alongside my fit and healthy colleagues over 'me or my clients as shielder who are now being told again to stay in as too high risk of dying if we catch it' - id leave 3 DC without a parent. Our younger shielding clients at home could equally die or be seriously ill. Our CEV and CV groups are also more at risk of needing NHS admission than healthy 65-70 year olds! . ^
^
Face to face Keyworkers should be high up on the list but at same level of CEV after our over 80s and carehome residents (& staff & hospital workers) who are most at risk.

I think a lot of people are failing to grasp that this initial wave of vaccinations isn't about stopping the pandemic, or even saving lives, at least not initially, that will become a long term goal as a vaccination program gets established.

In the short term, it's about ensuring that we continue to have a functioning health care system. Statistically the elderly are far more likely to require hospitalisation, which is why they are prioritised in this round.

It sucks if you are a CEV 30 year old, but again, it's not about ensuring that you are protected, not yet anyway. It's about protecting the NHS.

Umm. Yes. That's what I said. Don't move teachers above the vulnerable.

Whilst its great there is a possible vaccine i think the announcement was very bad timing. People do need some positive news but as stated there are a lot of hurdles to still overcome in regards to this vaccine. Announcing it at this stage is surely going to contribute to some people dropping their guard and perhaps lead to higher infection rates between now and when vaccine is available...

@WorksTheDinerAllDay

I think a lot of people are failing to grasp that this initial wave of vaccinations isn't about stopping the pandemic, or even saving lives, at least not initially, that will become a long term goal as a vaccination program gets established.

In the short term, it's about ensuring that we continue to have a functioning health care system. Statistically the elderly are far more likely to require hospitalisation, which is why they are prioritised in this round.

It sucks if you are a CEV 30 year old, but again, it's not about ensuring that you are protected, not yet anyway. It's about protecting the NHS.

Exactly this. It isn't being given to people because they deserve it, or need it, or because it's 'fair'. It's being given at population level to decrease the burden on the NHS.

‘@wigeon but yes, you'll see I've agreed that the reason HCPs are getting it is to protect others so teachers shouldn't be getting it above the vulnerable. But the idea that 'teachers are less at risk' when this graph DIRECTLY compares them to HCPs/emergency services/care and discovers they have the same risk (slightly lower for primary, slightly higher for unspecificed teaching role) is a lazy and untrue argument.’

Yes, a lower risk than for other professions, as shown on the chart. We have known for months that HCPs do not have an increased risk of COVID. It is taxi drivers and security guards who are at greatest risk, followed by public facing admin and retail roles.

HCPs and care workers should still get the vaccine first alongside the elderly because that reduces the risk to the elderly and vulnerable that they work with.

For all those talking about the shielded stuck in doors, the shielded returned to work a while back, and not all jobs could be done from home.

I would say

healthcare workers including staff in care/nursing homes
CEV
school and nursery staff, childminders etc and prison staff
and then the usual criteria for a flu vaccine

You have to look at economics as well as health - you don't want loads of teachers getting it and being off because whether you like it or not, parents rely on schools being open to work.

There are people who have spent their entire lives studying disease transmission. I want those experts to decide how to distribute the vaccine. We as the general public should shut up and listen to people who know what they are talking about.

Absolutely this. And for the virus as a whole, not just for the vaccine. I’m so sick of everyone thinking they know me better, your average person on Mumsnet knows very little about this topic. There was a thread the other day asking something about coronavirus, the OP had asked on Mumsnet as she wanted the opinion of experts. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I mean.... ffs.

I’m more interested in the time line to vaccinate the whole population. Any ideas?

In the short term, it's about ensuring that we continue to have a functioning health care system. Statistically the elderly are far more likely to require hospitalisation, which is why they are prioritised in this round
Nothing else to say in this thread but this.

The 40yo with cancer will be more likely to pass away when they could have survived because of the delay in accessing cancer treatment because of the number of older people on Covid wards and staff needing to be redeployed than dying if Covid.

‘There are people who have spent their entire lives studying disease transmission. I want those experts to decide how to distribute the vaccine. We as the general public should shut up and listen to people who know what they are talking about.’

Absolutely this.

The whole population don't need vaccinating and it w9uld be a waste.

I haven’t rtft. The order looks roughly right.

I would certainly vaccinate teachers above healthy, office based types of the same age. I’d also concentrate on people in high density environments like food factories, prisons, uni halls.

[quote SchrodingersUnicorn]@AllTheUserNamesAreTaken I've literally just linked that data upthread.
ONS data shows teachers at the same risk of infection as health and social care staff - first survey done since schools were opened.
Two points:

1. It's interesting the government have phrased it as 'no more at risk' suggesting they thought initially teachers might be even more at risk than health and social care staff and we should be relieved it's the same risk!!
2. That doesn't necessarily mean teachers should get the vaccine, as the reason for health and social care staff getting it is to protect vulnerable patients. But it does mean the argument that 'teachers aren't at risk' is debunked.[/quote] You seem to have missed off this bit Since the start of the school year there has been no evidence of difference in the positivity rate between primary and secondary school teachers and their households, other key workers and their households, and other professions and their households.

So no difference between teaching staff and other keyworkers but also no difference between them and other professions. So it appears being in school does not place teachers at any greater risk of covid than being an accountant or lawyer

[quote SchrodingersUnicorn]@wigeon. That's exactly the bit I'm talking about. Read the small print to that graph and it tells you that 'other essential workers' in this case is defined as HCPs, care workers and fire/police. It's not really 'all other essential workers'.[/quote]
I read the small print which defines key workers as including health and care staff. I’m pointing you to the bit which also includes “other professions”, as another category in addition to “key workers”, and presumably means “other professions” such as accountants, carpenters, lawyers, shop assistants, graphic designers, marketing professionals etc etc etc, and shows similar levels of prevalence in these “other professions” to teachers.

I think the ONS data appear to show that contrary to popular belief on this thread, Health and care staff do not have higher prevalence of Covid than teachers or other professions, but they are such a focus of government policy in terms of vaccination because they come into contact with vulnerable people who themselves are likely to do worse if they get Covid, and because of the serious impact of staff absence on the health service, which would lead to poorer care. Which is more important than ensuring full staffing in, say, an accountancy firm or a shop. I imagine health and care staff have similar prevalence to “other professions” because of the rigorous infection control protocols in health and care settings.

@Shimy

I’m more interested in the time line to vaccinate the whole population. Any ideas?

It will never happen. Like the flu jab, only the most vulnerable and healthcare workers will be prioritised. I suspect eventually, like the flu jab, you will be able to get it privately.

There’s no need to vaccinate 100% of people when the death rate is 1%. The focus needs to be on those at increased risk of death and those who care for them.

It sucks if you are a CEV 30 year old, but again, it's not about ensuring that you are protected, not yet anyway. It's about protecting the NHS.

Erm, you take up same NHS beds as CEV 30 year old as a 70 year old and are more likely to die and need respiratory help.

The age thing is a little misleading as there's increasingly higher proportion of CEV and CV in older people with increasing age , it's the underlying health conditions that add to mix as well as frailty & vulnerability as we age

There's just over 2.2 million CEV in U.K. - it's not huge %- so I'm surprised they aren't prioritorisng any age CEV as well as over 75s /80s and front line health & social care staff. We (under retirement age) CEVs keep the country running too! Shock news ... but quite a few of us younger CEVs are key workers being made to stay home !! PPs are making a few assumptions that younger disabled people don't work!

Ps. Don't start me on the lack of CV and CEV flu jab priority this year!

People who say they aren’t going to have the vaccine are naive. Someone has to be first. Personally I think that it takes a certain kind of person who is prepared to be a trial subject, knowing they might actually only get the placebo and knowing they might catch COVID.

If you’re so afraid of having the vaccine which has been tested that you won’t be having it, then clearly you’re not actually afraid of dying of COVID or suffering the long-term impacts, in which case crack on. Just don’t expect the health service to be hugely sympathetic to your cause.

I liked the way that Jonathan van Tam dismissed the anti vacs movement out of hand last night.

I have a device in my heart called a mitraclip. It wasn’t licenced for use on the NHS until December 2018 and I had it fitted in June 2019. It is such a new innovation that the long-term impacts are as yet still unknown. But all I know is, it has revolutionised my life and without it I would be dead. If I end up dead anyway some point down the line, then at least I had a decent life until then. And well, we’re all going to die, so later rather than sooner would be my preference.

So when the vaccine becomes available I will be first in the queue when it comes to my turn. I don’t think we need to give any airtime to people who say they don’t want it. That’s their choice to make. Just don’t expect people to be overwhelmingly sympathetic when they catch COVId, or expect the people around you to take you into account with regard to COVID.

There are people who have spent their entire lives studying disease transmission. I want those experts to decide how to distribute the vaccine. We as the general public should shut up and listen to people who know what they are talking about

This.

Also, there has been thread after thread saying older people should be "protected" (i.e. stop being selfish and stay at home) so the rest of the population can go about their lives. Now there is potentially a vaccine, people are moaning about older people getting it first.

The ageism is staggering.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I'm not sure why teachers aren't on the list?

1. Care Home Staff and Residents
2. ALL medical patient facing staff across all sectors
3. Teachers (Secondary, then Primary, then HE)
4. The clinically vulnerable due to illness

You are joking, right? A lot of the clinically vulnerable can’t their homes. They will die if they get COVID. And you want to give it to teachers before them??

Erm, you take up same NHS beds as CEV 30 year old as a 70 year old and are more likely to die and need respiratory help.

I don’t think this is actually true, the data shows that age is the biggest risk factor for serious illness and death.

Call me a cynic but it's largely the older generation who will be the ones voting Tory in the next election

I wouldn't call you a cynic, I would call you a very nasty person who is not exactly bright.

It’s not really difficult to understand why the vaccination order is based primarily on age and doesn’t put emergency services, teachers, or other professions (except care home snd health workers who could infect the elderly) before age. It correlates quite clearly with the deaths in age groups

Age remains the biggest risk factor.