To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

Oh, and jurors - huge backlog in the criminal justice system, and putting 12 random people together carries a risk

Assuming the vaccine prevents asymptomatic spread health and social care workers should be first because stopping them spreading the virus inadvertently (through asymptomatic cases as fit and well healthcare workers) protects the highest number of the most vulnerable people. Can also be vaccinated at their workplace...

Given the vagaries of storage of this vaccine (-75 degrees C) it clearly needs to be administered in healthcare or other centralised locations.

Teachers are far less of a vector to clinically vulnerable people than healthcare staff. It's a numbers game not a value judgement - and the fewer people are vulnerable the better resourced hospitals can be.

The quoted numbers somewhere is community based infections
In our department 30% tested pos for Corona, after 1st wave, this has now crept up to 50%. but they are tested at work=NHS, so not sure this comes under community infections.

There are no agreed criteria and priorities yet, unless it’s been decided outside of PHE and NHSE

Yes it falls outside those two bodies, and is the responsibility bility of JCVI

Current iteration of the priority list (and discussions surround it) here:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-25-september-2020/jcvi-updated-interim-advice-on-priority-groups-for-covid-19-vaccination

@laudemio

Cev people may react differently to the vax compared to majority of population. It makes sense to vaccinaye older people first in case of any very rare side effects not found in trials. Disclaimer this is my own logic and not based on any actual knowledge.

My dad is 85, my boss 72 and neither of them are intending to have the vaccine based on that very assumption...

I understand their concerns but equally where does that leave us if every age group has a relatively low uptake of the vaccine based on what ifs?

[quote SchrodingersUnicorn]I'm bored of arguing this but also astonished at the number of people who believe teachers aren't at risk.
ONS data released this week that looks at schools whilst they are actually open not half online like earlier data, shows that teachers are just as likely to get covid as 'other essential workers'. However, if you read the small print, when they say 'other essential workers' they specifically mean health and social care workers.

If we could just accept that teachers are at the same risk of catching it as these groups AS THE DATA SHOWS and put some safety measures in (and get vulnerable staff and pupils out) we might be able to keep schools both open and functioning.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/6november2020#analysis-of-the-number-of-school-workers-key-workers-and-other-professions-in-england-who-had-covid-19[/quote]
@SchrodingersUnicorn - you have missed this bit in bold that says teachers aren’t at more risk than “other professions” either:

“ Data from 2 September (the start of the school year) to 16 October 2020 show no evidence of differences in the positivity rate between primary and secondary school teachers, other key workers and other professions”.

Here’s a graph showing how the risk to different kinds of teachers compares to the risk for key workers, and “other professions”. Interestingly, the risk seems lower for primary teachers than “other professions”.

So presumably health and care staff are top of the list for vaccination, NOT because they themselves are more at risk, but to protect the vulnerable people they care for.

I think it’s also noteworthy that at a time when there are big rises in cases generally, and there’s a national lockdown, schools, despite being open, aren’t in fact having to close, or send year groups home, due to staff absence due to Covid.

Gosh teachers get bashed even by proxy

I’d do all the teens/20 somethings and let them go have lives again

You've all forgotten one major group who ought to be at the top - cyclists (following on from the comment about dog owners). Oh, and white van drivers, neighbours who park badly and MILs. (Tongue in cheek emoji)

Is it sensible to force all vulnerable groups to have the vaccination?

No.
And that won't be happening. Not compulsory.

It will require consent from the individual, or the holder of their medical POA, or other suitable responsible adult.

I can't believe that people have already started arguing about who should be offered the vaccine first! It hasn't even been approved for administration yet.

Move teachers up the list, yes, but not above the clinically vulnerable. Schools staying open is a priority.

Thanks scaevola, genuinely useful. Not sure agencies are joining up their thinking.

@wigeon. That's exactly the bit I'm talking about. Read the small print to that graph and it tells you that 'other essential workers' in this case is defined as HCPs, care workers and fire/police. It's not really 'all other essential workers'.

@wigeon but yes, you'll see I've agreed that the reason HCPs are getting it is to protect others so teachers shouldn't be getting it above the vulnerable. But the idea that 'teachers are less at risk' when this graph DIRECTLY compares them to HCPs/emergency services/care and discovers they have the same risk (slightly lower for primary, slightly higher for unspecificed teaching role) is a lazy and untrue argument.

@Kpo58

Is it sensible to force all vulnerable groups to have the vaccination? For some people dying quickishly of Covid may be preferable to spending many years with what they currently have.

No one will be forced! You still have to consent.

I’ve not had a single patient say they’d prefer a death with Covid over getting to see friends and family again.

I wish people wouldn’t make “better off dead” value judgements about those with disabilities and the elderly. And if you’d actually seen someone dying of Covid and how awful the final days struggling for breath are, as well as the loneliness of never seeing your loved ones before you pass unless it’s on FaceTime, you wouldn’t be wishing it on people. We shouldn’t be using Covid as a form of Euthanasia ffs.

This may have been said already (confess haven’t read all the thread) but this has never been about stopping people getting the virus. It has only ever been about making sure we have a functional health care system. We already know the people who are most at risk hence why the priority list for vaccine has been put together. Once they have been vaccinated it will take the pressure off the nhs and we can start to get back to normal. People will still catch and sadly die from the virus but in manageable numbers ( just like flu). I doubt very much if the vaccine will be rolled out to the wider population. I see it being prioritised for the priority groups much like the flu vaccine and the rest of us taking our chances or paying for it if we want it. Matt Hancock has already said children will not be getting it. It hasn’t been tested on children anyway so won’t be licensed for use in children initially anyway.

Move teachers up the list, yes, but not above the clinically vulnerable
Of course teachers shouldn't be vaccinated before the vulnerable. The former chances of death is low, the latter extremely high.

You really have to be self centered to believe that the vulnerable are....less vulnerable than teachers!

@BluebellsGreenbells

Gosh teachers get bashed even by proxy

I’d do all the teens/20 somethings and let them go have lives again

Really?

You’d vaccinate the ones LEAST likely to die over those most likely? Most teens and 20 somethings have been going out partying and spreading it anyway.

You do realise that there are children, teens, 20-50 somethings on the CEV list too and by your judgement you’d be depriving some children and young people of their parents growing up? Bonkers.

Oh look. Ageist shite on Mumsnet. Who'd have thought it?

Shall we all just take cyanide and get out of your way?

Excellently said @cassgate, some of these suggestions are insane.

@saraclara

Those who've been stuck in their homes shielding since March should absolutely be first. I can't begin to imagine how miserable that must be.

Free the shielders!

Thank you that made me smile

@MintyCedric

Call me a cynic but it's largely the older generation who will be the ones voting Tory in the next election .

I wouldn't call you a cynic. But have a think about what you're really saying there. People should be vaccinated against a virus more likely to kill them than another group based on their voting preferences? I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like a supremacist.

@dontdisturbmenow

Move teachers up the list, yes, but not above the clinically vulnerable Of course teachers shouldn't be vaccinated before the vulnerable. The former chances of death is low, the latter extremely high.

You really have to be self centered to believe that the vulnerable are....less vulnerable than teachers!

This.again I am very very much in favour of teachers having more protection at work e.g. ppe and secondary kids wearing masks But to suggest they are vaccinated before the vulnerable is diabolical